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-   -   Socialism Should Stop Being Maligned! (http://hamumu.com/forum/showthread.php?t=24831)

REACTOR 01-28-2015 05:29 PM

Socialism Should Stop Being Maligned!
 
I feel that socialism is being too demonized and used by some people as very stupid and off-topic reasons for flaws in their own system.

Obama is always mentioned as being socialist, but if he was socialist, then that should mean that the whole USA should follow a socialist system, but no, the USA is capitalist, and I personally don't see anything socialist about it.

Before we delve deeper, what is socialism?

Socialism is a system where everyone is equal, wealth is distributed more equally, and the major characteristics are free health care, free education, and sharing of land.

Although socialist countries do not always have what is mentioned in theory, the main skeleton is that it's meant to provide for the people and develop more of a culture which is not so much money oriented.

Some may say that it promotes laziness and incompetence, but you have those anyways in the capitalist system.

Also, with communism, you can't say that people will immediately turn to laziness. There are many factors which contribute to peoples activity.

Although there were leaders such as Stalin as always mentioned every time there is a conversation about socialism/communism, they are the people, how about the system?

The system says no such thing as having to kill people for the greater good, while socialism has failed continuously, has anyone wondered the question "why".

There are other socialist states than infamous China, Germany, and supposedly infamous Russia.

Vietnam wanted to be socialist, but suddenly, the USA declared a police action onto it.
And so is the case with a few others.

I am not going to provide any sources as I think anyone should be able to find it.

I am saying this because I am really mad at those people who keep on using socialism/communism as an excuse for the flaws in their own system.

A successful socialist state which I found was Uruguay.

HappyStikBeaver 01-28-2015 08:04 PM

Wow, you convinced me! I mean, why use sources for an already incredibly persuasive argument?
Anyways,I am now a socialist. Moving to Cuba momentarily.

REACTOR 01-28-2015 11:23 PM

Re: Socialism Should Stop Being Maligned!
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by HappyStikBeaver (Post 347659)
Wow, you convinced me! I mean, why use sources for an already incredibly persuasive argument?
Anyways,I am now a socialist. Moving to Cuba momentarily.

-.-

No this is really unfair. Look at the USA, how are they? Really look closely at them!

And it's not a persuasive argument! I really feel as though socialism is being the excuse for everything that goes wrong. Obama's health care system doesn't work, he is a socialist. The Fukushima incident hasn't been fixed, they are socialist.

It's getting irritating.

seamonkey 01-29-2015 01:30 AM

Re: Socialism Should Stop Being Maligned!
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by HappyStikBeaver (Post 347659)
Wow, you convinced me! I mean, why use sources for an already incredibly persuasive argument?
Anyways,I am now a socialist. Moving to Cuba momentarily.

Cuba isn't socialist. It also isn't nearly as bad as American media makes it out to be. I'm not saying his post is the most eloquent academic paper of all time, but significantly less of this post makes me want to leave the room than other political statements on these forums.

Quote:

Originally Posted by REACTOR (Post 347658)
I feel that socialism is being too demonized and used by some people as very stupid and off-topic reasons for flaws in their own system.

Obama is always mentioned as being socialist, but if he was socialist, then that should mean that the whole USA should follow a socialist system, but no, the USA is capitalist, and I personally don't see anything socialist about it.

Before we delve deeper, what is socialism?

Socialism is a system where everyone is equal, wealth is distributed more equally, and the major characteristics are free health care, free education, and sharing of land.

Although socialist countries do not always have what is mentioned in theory, the main skeleton is that it's meant to provide for the people and develop more of a culture which is not so much money oriented.

Some may say that it promotes laziness and incompetence, but you have those anyways in the capitalist system.

Also, with communism, you can't say that people will immediately turn to laziness. There are many factors which contribute to peoples activity.

Although there were leaders such as Stalin as always mentioned every time there is a conversation about socialism/communism, they are the people, how about the system?

The system says no such thing as having to kill people for the greater good, while socialism has failed continuously, has anyone wondered the question "why".

There are other socialist states than infamous China, Germany, and supposedly infamous Russia.

Vietnam wanted to be socialist, but suddenly, the USA declared a police action onto it.
And so is the case with a few others.

I am not going to provide any sources as I think anyone should be able to find it.

I am saying this because I am really mad at those people who keep on using socialism/communism as an excuse for the flaws in their own system.

A successful socialist state which I found was Uruguay.

You are probably right that economic systems that aren't capitalism are demonized and thus action is taken to change them. (Venezuela and Vietnam are examples of this) There are reasons this happens, but I won't get into that now.

If you want to have a discussion of what economic systems produce what results you are going to have to be much more specific. Capitalism, Socialism, Communism etc are all distinct and broad terms - what type of socialism (or communism), do you espouse? Also I don't think saying the US economy is capitalist is particularly useful - instead discuss particular aspects of the economy and how they relate to both the state and people in various class positions. Lastly none of the 3 countries you listed are socialist: China has a weird capitalist-fascist bent insofar as they try to modernize the concept of an emperor. Germany is currently capitalist, and in during Nazi Germany the country was either A. super depressed due to Versailles or B. super expansionist due to WWII and all that jazz. (how Germany's economy would have looked had the won the war is unclear) Russia was marxism-leninism, which is characterized by much more state control than most contemporary forms of socialism.

REACTOR 01-29-2015 01:54 AM

Re: Socialism Should Stop Being Maligned!
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by seamonkey (Post 347661)
Cuba isn't socialist. It also isn't nearly as bad as American media makes it out to be. I'm not saying his post is the most eloquent academic paper of all time, but significantly less of this post makes me want to leave the room than other political statements on these forums.


You are probably right that economic systems that aren't capitalism are demonized and thus action is taken to change them. (Venezuela and Vietnam are examples of this) There are reasons this happens, but I won't get into that now.

If you want to have a discussion of what economic systems produce what results you are going to have to be much more specific. Capitalism, Socialism, Communism etc are all distinct and broad terms - what type of socialism (or communism), do you espouse? Also I don't think saying the US economy is capitalist is particularly useful - instead discuss particular aspects of the economy and how they relate to both the state and people in various class positions. Lastly none of the 3 countries you listed are socialist: China has a weird capitalist-fascist bent insofar as they try to modernize the concept of an emperor. Germany is currently capitalist, and in during Nazi Germany the country was either A. super depressed due to Versailles or B. super expansionist due to WWII and all that jazz. (how Germany's economy would have looked had the won the war is unclear) Russia was marxism-leninism, which is characterized by much more state control than most contemporary forms of socialism.

Well okay you are right that the first examples I gave were probably not socialist.

Lets see, I have to give more specific examples...

HappyStikBeaver 01-29-2015 08:07 PM

I apologize for pulling this directly from Wikipedia:
Quote:

Cuba has had a communist political system since 1959. Cuba is constitutionally defined as a Marxist–Leninist "socialist state guided by the principles of José Martí, and the political ideas of Marx, the father of communist states, Engels and Lenin."
If I were to move to a country which follows the beliefs and guidelines of socialism, I feel like Cuba is a pretty good choice. Honestly I would love to (temporarily) visit the country; they have really nice cars there. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

REACTOR 01-29-2015 09:12 PM

Re: Socialism Should Stop Being Maligned!
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by HappyStikBeaver (Post 347664)
I apologize for pulling this directly from Wikipedia:

If I were to move to a country which follows the beliefs and guidelines of socialism, I feel like Cuba is a pretty good choice. Honestly I would love to (temporarily) visit the country; they have really nice cars there. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Certainly Cuba is in a better position then it was with a cruel dictator like many Mezo and South American countries.

Cuba's number one export is doctors, they actually ship out doctors as aid to countries medical needs. I think that's pretty significant, you don't hear about that in the news. :/

REACTOR 02-19-2015 02:49 AM

Re: Socialism Should Stop Being Maligned!
 
http://i.imgur.com/LFMsLj5.png

This is what I mean. Whoever wrote that is not only smug but also extremely stupid! The USA has never been and still is not a socialist state. Argh!

seamonkey 02-19-2015 12:06 PM

Re: Socialism Should Stop Being Maligned!
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by REACTOR (Post 347734)

This is what I mean. Whoever wrote that is not only smug but also extremely stupid! The USA has never been and still is not a socialist state. Argh!

I mean we're kinda socialist. We're definitely not capitalist. I think the technically correct term is that we live in a mixed economy.

Before I peace out two things:
1. that picture doesn't mention america. It is just an ideological statement absent reference to any particular implementation.
2. Many people have been taught that socialism and communism are evil, back in the days of McCarthyism and the evils of red spread. Give people some slack.

REACTOR 02-19-2015 11:15 PM

Re: Socialism Should Stop Being Maligned!
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by seamonkey (Post 347735)
I mean we're kinda socialist. We're definitely not capitalist. I think the technically correct term is that we live in a mixed economy.

Before I peace out two things:
1. that picture doesn't mention america. It is just an ideological statement absent reference to any particular implementation.
2. Many people have been taught that socialism and communism are evil, back in the days of McCarthyism and the evils of red spread. Give people some slack.

The USA is kinda socialist...??? o.0 Please expand on that.

seamonkey 02-19-2015 11:44 PM

Re: Socialism Should Stop Being Maligned!
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by REACTOR (Post 347736)
The USA is kinda socialist...??? o.0 Please expand on that.

Sure. It would be more correct to say that we have socialist aspects to our economy. Capitalism is the economic system where the means of production are privately owned, and goods and services are sold on an open market, meaning that there is little interference with how wages prices etc are set from the government or another third party. Communism and Socialism in all their variant forms are economic systems where the means of production are not privately owned (at least not completely), and some external force regulates to various degrees what the market is allowed to do. Some aspects and areas of our economy are clearly not capitalist: the US is heavily involved in setting wages, property rights aren't fully respected (taxation and various government entities' ability to forcibly buy property from you to build hospitals or whatever), and even nationalizing certain industries occasionally are all things that happen in the US economy that are antithetical to capitalism.

REACTOR 02-28-2015 03:43 AM

Re: Socialism Should Stop Being Maligned!
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by seamonkey (Post 347737)
Sure. It would be more correct to say that we have socialist aspects to our economy. Capitalism is the economic system where the means of production are privately owned, and goods and services are sold on an open market, meaning that there is little interference with how wages prices etc are set from the government or another third party. Communism and Socialism in all their variant forms are economic systems where the means of production are not privately owned (at least not completely), and some external force regulates to various degrees what the market is allowed to do. Some aspects and areas of our economy are clearly not capitalist: the US is heavily involved in setting wages, property rights aren't fully respected (taxation and various government entities' ability to forcibly buy property from you to build hospitals or whatever), and even nationalizing certain industries occasionally are all things that happen in the US economy that are antithetical to capitalism.

Okay... But certainly you would agree that the recent poverty which is sweeping the USA is not because of socialism.

seamonkey 02-28-2015 10:03 AM

Re: Socialism Should Stop Being Maligned!
 
I am not an economist so I may not be the best person to answer that question. That said it looks like poverty went on a slight uptick in 2009, and has been elevated since. It seems logical to conclude this is a result of the economic collapse, which was probably a result of artificial inflation and not socialism. So all that said I think it would be fair to say socialism did not cause that.

On an economic theory level I can provide reasons in both directions on the issue of poverty.

REACTOR 03-01-2015 03:44 AM

Re: Socialism Should Stop Being Maligned!
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by seamonkey (Post 347773)
I am not an economist so I may not be the best person to answer that question. That said it looks like poverty went on a slight uptick in 2009, and has been elevated since. It seems logical to conclude this is a result of the economic collapse, which was probably a result of artificial inflation and not socialism. So all that said I think it would be fair to say socialism did not cause that.

On an economic theory level I can provide reasons in both directions on the issue of poverty.

I think the USA is also collapsing in terms of economy because they over extended themselves with starting all these wars and extending their military influence.

texasjoshua 03-01-2015 01:26 PM

Re: Socialism Should Stop Being Maligned!
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by REACTOR (Post 347780)
I think the USA is also collapsing in terms of economy because they over extended themselves with starting all these wars and extending their military influence.

Alright quick note, while military expenditures are high, Welfare, Social Security, Medicare, the ACA ect. constitute 58% of American expenditures. Military expenditures are around 14%. Also the US has been starting wars for the last 40 years. Plus the Cold War, the wars aren't anything new.


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