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Old 05-26-2010, 04:22 AM   #41
Mr.Onion
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Default Re: The Great Debate

Unfortunatly, like The People's Front of Judea, everyone can agree that the current government needs to be overthrown, but can't agree on what to replace it with.

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Terrorism, actually. There's quite a difference. (In that one is an abstract concept and the other is an abstract group)
That's just as bad! You can't fight something which doesn't technically exist.

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Our national debt to various nations right now is so high we'd have to divvy up the USA and sell it to various nations to repay it. And probably then some.
And then a lot.
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Old 05-26-2010, 07:32 PM   #42
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Default Re: The Great Debate

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Originally Posted by Mr.Onion View Post
Unfortunatly, like The People's Front of Judea, everyone can agree that the current government needs to be overthrown, but can't agree on what to replace it with.


That's just as bad! You can't fight something which doesn't technically exist.


And then a lot.
I agree on all your points.
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Old 05-26-2010, 10:52 PM   #43
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Default Re: The Great Debate

I agree that there are no obvious solutions as to what to replace the current American system with. I think what is required is a lot of dialogue on the part of the American people. Ready made solutions tend to be along the lines of how Hitler proposed to "fix" Germany in the 1930's.
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Old 05-27-2010, 02:28 PM   #44
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Default Re: The Great Debate

I had hoped to avoid having to use this train of thought, but it seems as if "Mr. Nice Guy" isn't working too well.

I am from a WEALTHY family, that owns a small, SUCCESSFUL bank. My father works nearly every minute of his time in order to keep things running smoothly. He does NOT, sit behind a desk all day and do nothing. In terms of the volume of work we do, it is many times more than anything any of the poor class does. We do more work, so we earn more money, it's that simple. However, apparently, since we work more and therefore make more money, it is fair for the government to raise our taxes for welfare programs that benefit people who work significantly less than we do? Let me get this straight, we work night and day, while these people work for only part of the day, and yet we have to give them money? I don't see the point. Sure, it's the "humane" thing to do, but how does it benefit us from giving money to some homeless guy living on the street, who we probaly will never see or hear from? We have earned our fortune with our sweat and blood, and yet the government thinks they have the right to just snatch some of it away and give it to the freeloaders. And I don't care what you say about us "not needing the money" or "being greedy." This is OUR fortune, not THEIRS. I don't care if some guy is starving on a street corner, I'm not giving him a free ride. NO EXCEPTIONS.

But, since the upper class is a minority, the government doesn't care about us. They will simply keep on taxing us, which will, unchecked, kill America. Why? Upper class gets unfairly taxed, upper class finally becomes fustrated with the system, leave the country, take their fortune with them, and suddenly, America is left with a hole in it's economy. Regardless of what you think, money makes the world go round. It has been proven time and time again. The upper class contributes at least half of the government's tax dollars. If we leave, the government's income is cut in half, and America dies. The men on the streets are insignificant. If the government angers them, they can go and take their $20 somewhere else, and I can guarantee you won't see much change in America's economy. But anger the wealthy, and America dies.

Of course, there's also the illegal immigrants, many of whom work and make money (which is illegal since they arn't citizens), recieve some benefits, and DON'T PAY TAXES. I think Arizona made a good move with the new bill. However, it won't do anything until the other states follow suit. Once other states have similar laws in place, I think that the illegal immigrant problem will decrease significantly. Oh, but wait, I forgot, with that Communist president in power, that will never happen. Well, time to go pay their taxes for the next 3/4 years. Hopefully he'll be gone before then.
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Old 05-27-2010, 03:23 PM   #45
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Default Re: The Great Debate

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In terms of the volume of work we do, it is many times more than anything any of the poor class does.
Are you aware of just how offensive this statement is? It is not unusual for those who are unskilled or otherwise disadvantaged to be working at 2 or 3 jobs simultaneously. Pay does not rise linearly with work done. The highest-paying jobs don't involve much work at all. (Keep in mind that you don't necessarily qualify as "highest-paying" over the whole country. It's entirely probable that you work hard; I'm just pointing out that saying you work harder than the working classes is entirely hyperbole.)

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the government thinks they have the right to just snatch some of it away and give it to the freeloaders.
They do; They're the government. Pure capitalism results in a few very wealthy people, and the rest in perpetual debt. You're saying that that is preferable to the system right now? (Keep in mind that you're not necessarily the rich one in this system. )

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I don't care if some guy is starving on a street corner, I'm not giving him a free ride. NO EXCEPTIONS.
Society at large considers charity a Good Thing(TM), as does the working class, who outnumber the upper class by many, many times.

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If we leave, the government's income is cut in half, and America dies.
The accountancy doesn't actually work out like that. The upper classes could get up and leave, and it wouldn't make a dent in the income from the taxes of the middle classes. The middle class is taxed at full rate; The upper class can hire professional accountants to rearrange their finances and minimize the amount that ends up in the tax collector's pocket.

Also, Ubernoob, keep in mind that Germany would have probably won the war if Hitler hadn't deliberately sabotaged his government. (By giving generals overlapping responsibilities, and other things like that)
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Old 05-27-2010, 05:02 PM   #46
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Default Re: The Great Debate

I agree all the way with MO. Being poor does not equate to being lazy. Being lazy (normally) equates to being poor, although our government is trying to "fix" that. Most of the lower class\poor are the result of cracks in our education system, mass layoffs, and drugs. Mainly the second.
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Old 05-27-2010, 05:43 PM   #47
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Default Re: The Great Debate

Wow. And I thought the title of this threat was exaggerating...

Just wanted to throw in a few thoughts...

1. I haven't read the whole thread... just what's on this page. Sorry I'm a busy lady.

2. I LOVE seeing the depth of discussion that is going on here. And it appears that it is even happening with a certain level of respect and thoughtfulness. The teacher in me is rejoicing!

3. I couldn't agree with Mr. Onion's response more.

That is all. Back to being a busy lurker. Ta!
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Old 05-27-2010, 06:38 PM   #48
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Default Re: The Great Debate

Woah! Sol Hunt lives!

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Originally Posted by Mr.Onion View Post
They do; They're the government. Pure capitalism results in a few very wealthy people, and the rest in perpetual debt. You're saying that that is preferable to the system right now? (Keep in mind that you're not necessarily the rich one in this system. )
Look in the Constitution, No where in it does it say the government can "redistribute the wealth". It DOES Say powers not in the Constitution are given to the states, programs like welfare, thus it should be the states, not the federal government, who raises taxes to raise money on these programs, using state taxes.
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Last edited by happystickman; 05-27-2010 at 06:38 PM.
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Old 05-28-2010, 03:45 AM   #49
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Default Re: The Great Debate

Sonic, from reading your posts, I think you may (and I'm not trying to insult you or anything like that) have an entitlement complex.

And worse, you basically said you don't support charity. If a man was starving, how couldyou justify not helping him. Saying he's lazy? You are acting incredbally greedy. You don't know what proverty is like, yet you basically insult the lower class. I may not be middle class, but I know that we depend on the lower class for basically two of the sectors of industary.

Futhermore, your money is only worth the value the economy gives it. Beyond that, it's pretty much worthless. I won't think more or less of you based on how wealthly you are. I will however, judge based on how you treat money and other people. And you're acting like money is everything. It isn't.
(not trying to be offensive, sorry if it seems like that)

@HSM: Hi, I don't live in the USA. Please don't use the constitution as an argument.
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Old 05-28-2010, 06:28 AM   #50
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Default Re: The Great Debate

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Originally Posted by sonicchaos1993 View Post
I had hoped to avoid having to use this train of thought, but it seems as if "Mr. Nice Guy" isn't working too well.

I am from a WEALTHY family, that owns a small, SUCCESSFUL bank. My father works nearly every minute of his time in order to keep things running smoothly. He does NOT, sit behind a desk all day and do nothing. In terms of the volume of work we do, it is many times more than anything any of the poor class does. We do more work, so we earn more money, it's that simple.
Middle and Lower class people are the income source of businesses, including banks. If that income source is cut, so will be your own income, no matter how hard you work.
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However, apparently, since we work more and therefore make more money, it is fair for the government to raise our taxes for welfare programs that benefit people who work significantly less than we do? Let me get this straight, we work night and day, while these people work for only part of the day, and yet we have to give them money? I don't see the point.

Sure enough, you may work for more hours, but your health is not endangered because of your job.
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Sure, it's the "humane" thing to do, but how does it benefit us from giving money to some homeless guy living on the street, who we probaly will never see or hear from? We have earned our fortune with our sweat and blood, and yet the government thinks they have the right to just snatch some of it away and give it to the freeloaders.
I have to agree about the freeloaders, but illegal immigrants not only take up jobs, but get paid much less than normal, and thus, they force people to do the same thing, in order to get a job. I don't know about the US, but in Greece atleast 1/5 of the population is illegal immigrants, and the fact that our government accepts them is one of the main causes of the posision we are in now. How do you expect homeless Americans to work, when illegal immigrants force them to work for money insufficient to buy a loaf of bread, in order to work?
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And I don't care what you say about us "not needing the money" or "being greedy." This is OUR fortune, not THEIRS. I don't care if some guy is starving on a street corner, I'm not giving him a free ride. NO EXCEPTIONS.
Not going to try to change your mind, it would be impossible.
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But, since the upper class is a minority, the government doesn't care about us. They will simply keep on taxing us, which will, unchecked, kill America. Why? Upper class gets unfairly taxed, upper class finally becomes fustrated with the system, leave the country, take their fortune with them, and suddenly, America is left with a hole in it's economy. Regardless of what you think, money makes the world go round. It has been proven time and time again. The upper class contributes at least half of the government's tax dollars. If we leave, the government's income is cut in half, and America dies. The men on the streets are insignificant. If the government angers them, they can go and take their $20 somewhere else, and I can guarantee you won't see much change in America's economy. But anger the wealthy, and America dies.
Do you think you would live better outside of America? The crisis is global, and all governments have to take measures trying to control it, even though that is impossible with our corrupt economical system. You can't get out of the crisis, and you can't gain from it.
Quote:
Of course, there's also the illegal immigrants, many of whom work and make money (which is illegal since they arn't citizens), recieve some benefits, and DON'T PAY TAXES. I think Arizona made a good move with the new bill. However, it won't do anything until the other states follow suit. Once other states have similar laws in place, I think that the illegal immigrant problem will decrease significantly. Oh, but wait, I forgot, with that Communist president in power, that will never happen. Well, time to go pay their taxes for the next 3/4 years. Hopefully he'll be gone before then.
I agree that illegal immigrants are a very huge problem. I don't know what bill you are talking about, and I do not think illegal immigrants should be taxed. I say they should be forced out of the countries they have moved to, and all their money should be confiscated, in order to help the economy. And all those who support them or hire them should be billed for that.
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Old 05-29-2010, 08:50 AM   #51
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Default Re: The Great Debate

I'm going to expand on the thing I said to Happy Stick Man.
I don't like when people from the USA state the Constitution as an argument. It is irrelavent to those outside of the USA, and furthermore, to me, always seems like a cop-out, instead of building an argument from their own position. The same goes for the Amendments, which pop up in gun control mostly.
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Old 05-30-2010, 08:31 PM   #52
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Sometimes I hesitate to participate in threads like this debate because I think this Forum should be about the views of mostly young people which are the overwhelming majority of this Forum, instead of old timers like myself. But I'd like to make one point. Surely the economy has room for a little bit of compassion and cooperation? If you think the economy does not, then surely you should admit that a democracy should. I would go further and say that cooperation is essential to a healthy democracy, as important as the rule of law.
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Old 05-31-2010, 06:45 AM   #53
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Default Re: The Great Debate

I have no problem with charities, I think that people should willing donate to them when they have money to spend, not when the government forces them to from taxes.
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Old 05-31-2010, 06:48 AM   #54
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I have no problem with charities, I think that people should willing donate to them when they have money to spend, not when the government forces them to from taxes.
So it's okay to use tax money towards killing peope, but not towards helping them? That's how your agument follows through.
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Old 05-31-2010, 09:48 AM   #55
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Default Re: The Great Debate

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Originally Posted by Ubernoob View Post
Surely the economy has room for a little bit of compassion and cooperation? If you think the economy does not, then surely you should admit that a democracy should. I would go further and say that cooperation is essential to a healthy democracy, as important as the rule of law.
Cooperation is an integral part of self-interest in economics. Game theory states that if all parties cooperate, they usually do better than they would if they they all worked against each other. The problem arises because each individual is usually better off acting in self-interest than cooperatively. The Prisoner's Dilemma is the most famous example of this principle, although real variants are usually a little more complex.

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I have no problem with charities, I think that people should willing donate to them when they have money to spend, not when the government forces them to from taxes.
If there were fewer selfish people in the world, I'd support that entirely. The problem is, if we relied on charity to help those in need, there would not be nearly enough to support them. The government has access to a much larger supply of money and resources than charities do, and therefore they can afford to do much more good for the world. That said, the government is staggeringly inefficient, and I'd be much happier if outside sources could fund charitable ventures.
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Old 05-31-2010, 10:05 PM   #56
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If there were fewer selfish people in the world, I'd support that entirely. ... The government has access to a much larger supply of money and resources than charities do, and therefore they can afford to do much more good for the world. That said, the government is staggeringly inefficient, and I'd be much happier if outside sources could fund charitable ventures.
I'm glad you agree with me about the necessity of cooperation; civilization is impossible without it, and democracy could not exist.

I agree that the inefficiency of government is frustrating. And even if it were 100% efficient somehow, it could never entirely reflect any individual's values and priorities. If it did it would be dictatorship. I think the best argument for dictatorship involves efficiency, but I think democracy is even more efficient because it brings out the best in people, their creativity. And though democracy isn't perfect, it is the best system we have developed so far.
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