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Old 09-23-2011, 03:46 PM   #21
Pumpkineater
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Default Re: The Euro

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Oh, so just because I'm american, that makes me infinitely evil?!?
He never said that in his post. The American system is evil, the Americans in general are not. Same goes with pretty much the whole world.
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Old 09-23-2011, 04:45 PM   #22
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University courses can and do spread propaganda.
I've redone all the derivations myself. Economics, when done right, is a very mathematical discipline. I will not believe a professor whose claims cannot be backed by rigorous mathematical analysis. Don't assume that just because I agree that I have abandoned my skepticism.

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It is an obvious fact that when you import ridiculously cheap Egyptian food, the Greek farmer has to either reduce his prices to that of the Egyptians, or lose all his customers. In both cases, he is economically destroyed. We should not reduce our prices, Egyptians should increase theirs. The open-border policy of the EU is ruining the economy.
It's "obvious," except it's not true. Price differentials between nations don't actually have any effect on the direction or magnitude of trade. I can give you the derivation if you like, but it's a bit longer than I'd like to write here.

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While buying a computer serves capitalism, the benefits far outweigh the costs. The internet is probably the best thing that has ever happened regarding democracy and free speech.
That's not even close to what I meant by that quote, but I agree with you there. The internet is a powerful tool, and one which is incredibly dangerous in the right hands. Or the wrong ones.

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I disagree. Everything should be free, as long as it was accessible to everyone. If you wanted a solid gold car, a good requirement would be that everyone would have access to a solid gold car.
We're never going to have access to unlimited resources. As such, we must always make decisions about what is the most beneficial use of our resources. In a perfect world, both capitalism and communism achieve the optimal allocation of resources. In practice, our world isn't perfect. Thus, we need to look at where each system breaks down.

Capitalism is highly sensitive to the demands of the consumers. If people want something badly enough, someone will always provide it. The problem is distribution. When the system runs for enough generations, some people end up with more resources than others, regardless of other circumstances. That means there are always people without enough to afford what they need.

Communism is good at giving everyone access to everything that has been produced. The problem is getting people to produce it. If everything is available, there is nothing to repay the opportunity cost of creating anything. In other words, why should I waste my time and effort building a more fuel-efficient engine if it only saves me an hour of time refueling per year? It's not worth the effort for any individual to be innovative.
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Old 09-24-2011, 04:51 AM   #23
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Default Re: The Euro

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I've redone all the derivations myself. Economics, when done right, is a very mathematical discipline. I will not believe a professor whose claims cannot be backed by rigorous mathematical analysis. Don't assume that just because I agree that I have abandoned my skepticism.


It's "obvious," except it's not true. Price differentials between nations don't actually have any effect on the direction or magnitude of trade. I can give you the derivation if you like, but it's a bit longer than I'd like to write here.
I am sure you can prove that in theory, but the fact remains that foreign products have dominated the Greek market because of their over-competitive prices. This is not theoretical, this is a real problem that is contributing to the destruction of our economy.
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We're never going to have access to unlimited resources. As such, we must always make decisions about what is the most beneficial use of our resources. In a perfect world, both capitalism and communism achieve the optimal allocation of resources. In practice, our world isn't perfect. Thus, we need to look at where each system breaks down.

Capitalism is highly sensitive to the demands of the consumers. If people want something badly enough, someone will always provide it. The problem is distribution. When the system runs for enough generations, some people end up with more resources than others, regardless of other circumstances. That means there are always people without enough to afford what they need.

Communism is good at giving everyone access to everything that has been produced. The problem is getting people to produce it. If everything is available, there is nothing to repay the opportunity cost of creating anything. In other words, why should I waste my time and effort building a more fuel-efficient engine if it only saves me an hour of time refueling per year? It's not worth the effort for any individual to be innovative.
A potential fix for the motivation issue is to limit the availability of goods to those who don't do their part of obligatory work to help society (That obligatory work would be spread equally and due to the nature of communism be much less than what people are expected to do here (e.g. 12 hours/week).) Of course, due to the incredibly complicated nature of such political issues, I can't prove that would work. However, after a communist revolution and the installation of a Soviet system, a lot of test laws would be enacted to see what would work the best.

We have already seen that Capitalism doesn't work. Communism on the other hand, has never met the requirements it needs to meet in order to exist (Worldwide revolution).
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Old 09-24-2011, 05:37 AM   #24
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Default Re: The Euro

And will never meet them. Worldwide revolution is impossible. There are too many barriers, such as money, armies, religion and religion.

Also, Ron Paul effectively supports homopathic medience. There are laws on selling drugs for a reason, and it's not because homopathy works and threatens 'Big Pharma'. It's got something do to with the fact that is not proven to work. And completely stupid. Some Amazon berry might kill HIV and strengthen the immune system, but too many could posion you. And the too effects could come from two different chemicals. Allowing any quack to sell his stuff without even knowing the active ingredient igoing to get people killed.

Wait, what were we talking about?
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Old 09-24-2011, 10:46 AM   #25
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Default Re: The Euro

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And will never meet them. Worldwide revolution is impossible. There are too many barriers, such as money, armies, religion and religion.
Worldwide revolution is inevitable. All the barriers you listed can and will be addressed in the course of history. Money isn't a barrier, it is an incentive. As long as capitalism stays, more and more money will be concentrated on the vast minority of the people, and more and more people will be poor. Armies can be made from both sides. A revolutionary army can defeat a state army, as history has shown repeatedly. As science advances and education spreads, more and more people become Atheists (Example from the United Kingdom). I don't think it would be too far-fetched to say that Religion will be extinct in 200 years.
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Also, Ron Paul effectively supports homopathic medience. There are laws on selling drugs for a reason, and it's not because homopathy works and threatens 'Big Pharma'. It's got something do to with the fact that is not proven to work. And completely stupid. Some Amazon berry might kill HIV and strengthen the immune system, but too many could posion you. And the too effects could come from two different chemicals. Allowing any quack to sell his stuff without even knowing the active ingredient igoing to get people killed.
Let's take a look at Ron Paul and the other potential presidents:
Michele Bachmann on education
Michele Bachmann suports Israel and claims a nuclear strike on Iran shouldn't be taken of the table
Michele Bachmann supports constitutional amendments banning gay marriage and restricting abortion funds.


Rick Perry on gay marriage and foreign policy:
"Perry opposes the legal recognition of same-sex marriages, and supported the 2005 ballot proposition which amended the Texas constitution by defining marriage as "only a union between a man and a woman" and prohibiting the state from creating or recognizing "any legal status identical or similar to marriage"."
"In 2011, he accused President Obama of a "policy of appeasement" for giving "equal standing to the grievances of Israelis and Palestinians" in peace talks."

Barack Obama has increased US troops strength in Afghanistan
In 2011, Obama's Ambassador to the United Nations vetoed a resolution condemning Israeli settlements

Ron Paul on civil liberties such as drugs, prostitution, and gay marriage
Ron Paul's Non-Intervention policy
Ron Paul recognizes that the right to bear arms is there to place a check on government tyranny, and strongly supports it.
Ron Paul has voted to end affirmative action in college admissions.
Ron Paul on drug prohibition

He can have his "homopathic medience". I rest my case.

Edit: I forgot to mention Perry's prayer rally.

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Old 09-24-2011, 10:58 AM   #26
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If we cut out the Israel thing, since America loves it to bits and will always help it, Obama only has one bad point. Ron Paul has the anti-science, anti-gay marrage, not being anti-shellfish*, and being Republican. Who want to kill all the socialist/communist/whatever programs. He, and most other Tea Party nuts, seem to be trying to send America back to the dark ages.



*Lectivus, which is the Book saying 'no men lying together' also says 'don't eat them shellfish'. True story. Also didn't Jesus overturn those rules?
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Old 09-24-2011, 11:54 AM   #27
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Default Re: The Euro

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As long as capitalism stays, more and more money will be concentrated on the vast minority of the people, and more and more people will be poor.
This is not what has happened historically.
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Old 09-24-2011, 01:09 PM   #28
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Default Re: The Euro

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I am sure you can prove that in theory, but the fact remains that foreign products have dominated the Greek market because of their over-competitive prices. This is not theoretical, this is a real problem that is contributing to the destruction of our economy.
So you're saying you have a problem with abundance? If you have a lot of foreign goods at low prices, then why can you not also produce a lot of domestic goods and have a greater quantity of goods available at lower average price to the consumer? You claim you want everything to be available for free, yet you complain that it's available at low prices. The only conceivable way in which your claim is not inconsistent is if you argue that the Greek people cannot possibly produce anything at all beyond what they import. Also, Bastiat would like a word with you.

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A potential fix for the motivation issue is to limit the availability of goods to those who don't do their part of obligatory work to help society (That obligatory work would be spread equally and due to the nature of communism be much less than what people are expected to do here (e.g. 12 hours/week).) Of course, due to the incredibly complicated nature of such political issues, I can't prove that would work. However, after a communist revolution and the installation of a Soviet system, a lot of test laws would be enacted to see what would work the best.
How exactly do you decide who does what work? If it's decided by what people want to do, you won't have janitors or other people doing messy jobs. If it's by what people are best suited to, you'll run into the same problems. If it's by what society needs, then you'll never find the brilliant innovators who push science and technology forward. What criteria do you use to make the proper decision?

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We have already seen that Capitalism doesn't work. Communism on the other hand, has never met the requirements it needs to meet in order to exist (Worldwide revolution).
Oddly enough, perfect capitalism is indistinguishable from perfect communism. We've seen that capitalism works quite well, just not perfectly. The goods and services that people need are all provided by market forces. We've never seen communism work even close to perfectly, so we don't really have a point of reference. Worldwide revolution only works if everyone wants things to change, and frankly, most people don't care enough to fight a system that hasn't worked too badly.

And because it's come up, none of the US presidential candidates are worth my time. I don't particularly care about the beliefs of my president, but I do care what policies will be enacted. All of the candidates have made it quite clear they don't understand the effects of their policies well enough to lead my country. It's bad enough that I might have to step in and fix things. I can assure you that no one wants to see that less than I do.
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Old 09-24-2011, 01:13 PM   #29
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If we cut out the Israel thing, since America loves it to bits and will always help it, Obama only has one bad point. Ron Paul has the anti-science, anti-gay marrage, not being anti-shellfish*, and being Republican. Who want to kill all the socialist/communist/whatever programs. He, and most other Tea Party nuts, seem to be trying to send America back to the dark ages.
Let's not cut out the Israel thing, it is very important. And what anti-gay thing are you talking about? Ron Paul stated in that video that gay marriage, just like drugs, is a civil liberty and it is not up to the government to ban it. He wants to leave it up to the states, which is pretty fair, as the most conservative ones will have the most conservative laws, and the overall oppression will be reduced.
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*Lectivus, which is the Book saying 'no men lying together' also says 'don't eat them shellfish'. True story. Also didn't Jesus overturn those rules?
That's debatable. According to many parts of the new testament, the old testament is also valid.

Edit: Ninja'd by Cheeselord. It is pretty late and your link is huge, so I'll reply to that tomorrow.

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Old 09-25-2011, 03:15 AM   #30
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Default Re: The Euro

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Let's not cut out the Israel thing, it is very important. And what anti-gay thing are you talking about? Ron Paul stated in that video that gay marriage, just like drugs, is a civil liberty and it is not up to the government to ban it. He wants to leave it up to the states, which is pretty fair, as the most conservative ones will have the most conservative laws, and the overall oppression will be reduced.
It's up to the federal government to force it upon those states that do not allow it. Why? Because the only reason it is banned is because of discrimination. Also, for Pauly boy to become President, most states will need to be Republican. I think. America governmet is weird.

Also, every America President-possible will probably have the same view on Israel, via this logic:

1. Many governments in the Middle East hast us.
2. Israel doesn't hate us and has nukes.
3. Ergo, be nice to it.
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Old 09-25-2011, 01:06 PM   #31
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It's up to the federal government to force it upon those states that do not allow it. Why? Because the only reason it is banned is because of discrimination.
The Constitution grants the federal government a very specific set of powers. Most of the time, the President and Congress ignore this, but that's explicitly unconstitutional. Marriage laws definitely belong to the states. As do, say, healthcare laws.
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Also, for Pauly boy to become President, most states will need to be Republican. I think. America governmet is weird.
The Republicans are so heavily divided that Obama's almost certain to win. Even if more states were Republican, their vote is still too divided to be a threat to the Democrats.

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Edit: Ninja'd by Cheeselord. It is pretty late and your link is huge, so I'll reply to that tomorrow.
The chapter on abundance and scarcity is the important one. The rest is all interesting, but not entirely on topic.
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Old 09-26-2011, 01:07 PM   #32
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The Constitution grants the federal government a very specific set of powers. Most of the time, the President and Congress ignore this, but that's explicitly unconstitutional. Marriage laws definitely belong to the states. As do, say, healthcare laws.
Then Ammend the thing to be less stupid! That's what they did about things like slavery and segregation. Actually, marriage for some and not for others is segregation. Doesn't the ultimate fall back document of supremeness ban that?

Also why on Earth is marriage a state thing? It's a word. Have a two word synonym for it: Civil Partnership. Hooray for not letting people call glasses spectectles because some random group finds it objectional.

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The Republicans are so heavily divided that Obama's almost certain to win. Even if more states were Republican, their vote is still too divided to be a threat to the Democrats.
Why can't the Tea Party peeps make their own party? They seem to be popular enough to maybe get a state.
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