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Old 11-28-2011, 07:44 AM   #21
Pumpkineater
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Default Re: Political Compasses Where Do You Stand?

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Originally Posted by Megadog View Post
You're against free trade? WHY?!?
Because it creates monopolies and concentrates capital on the hands of the few.
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Old 11-28-2011, 01:21 PM   #22
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Default Re: Political Compasses Where Do You Stand?

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"Military action that defies international law is sometimes justified." - depends what's going on.
So what's the point at which illegal warfare become allowable? This includes torture, chemical weapons, and killing civilians.

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"The rich are too highly taxed." - a flat tax seems nice.
Not in pratice. If I earn 100 bingos a day, and the tax rate is 10%, I get 90 bingos left over. If I need to use 80 of those bingos for the absolute minimum requirements to live, I'm much worse off than the guy who earn 300 bingos, and has 270 after tax. He can live more easily, and isn't as bothered by inflation.
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Old 11-28-2011, 04:09 PM   #23
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Default Re: Political Compasses Where Do You Stand?

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So what's the point at which illegal warfare become allowable? This includes torture, chemical weapons, and killing civilians.
The US already does at least two of those on a regular basis, they just call them "advanced interrogation techniques" and "terrorists"

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Old 11-28-2011, 05:02 PM   #24
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Default Re: Political Compasses Where Do You Stand?

^ However, the people responsible for doing so have been made war criminals.
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Old 11-28-2011, 05:21 PM   #25
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Default Re: Political Compasses Where Do You Stand?

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So what's the point at which illegal warfare become allowable? This includes torture, chemical weapons, and killing civilians.
I wasn't looking to argue, but I feel I should answer for this at least. I'm not talking about that, I'm talking about taking out dictators or bombing places (for the well-fare of others even when other countries (like those at the UN) don't agree with it. (Context, man.) Unfortunately, there's usually collateral damage.
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Old 11-28-2011, 08:18 PM   #26
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Default Re: Political Compasses Where Do You Stand?

It encourages importing products rather than promoting local things. I think that for areas like Africa, free trade should be promoted to build up their poor economies but for pretty much everything else, i believe that it destroys local economies while promoting international products.
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Old 11-28-2011, 08:40 PM   #27
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Default Re: Political Compasses Where Do You Stand?

^ It also allows NZ from being able to export to the whole of Europe due to massive trade barriers being dissolved. This is the only thing I've truly learned in economics at school, that, at least from NZ's perspective, free trade should aid us.
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Old 11-28-2011, 08:50 PM   #28
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^ That might be true, but tarrifs also prevent monopolies from being created. Or at least cut them down. If, for example, tarrifs were put on coke from say, the USA, then New Zealand products such as, i don't know, "johns juice" could make profit. That brings competition which i believe is key to a successful economy. International products are often cheaper because they can be mass produced. At your point, I believe that the benefits outweigh the negatives. Importing products (like importing kiwi products into china) adds costs of transport, and transport can be very expensive to people and the environment. People because it costs to bring products from A to B, especially if they have to be chilled the whole way, and the environment because shipping adds greenhouse gasses into the air. And things like the rena
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Old 11-28-2011, 09:18 PM   #29
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Default Re: Political Compasses Where Do You Stand?

Free trade between two nations allows both to have greater quantities of goods at lower prices than either nation could provide individually. True, it means that some people may need to change professions, but the standard of living in both nations improves. I can run through a basic proof if you like, but a good course in economics would explain this much better than I can. The only issue is the cost of transport, which isn't much compared to the profit involved.

Also, you seem to be advocating protectionism. That very rarely benefits anyone in society. Bastiat would like a word with you.
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Old 11-29-2011, 05:40 AM   #30
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Default Re: Political Compasses Where Do You Stand?

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Free trade between two nations allows both to have greater quantities of goods at lower prices than either nation could provide individually. True, it means that some people may need to change professions, but the standard of living in both nations improves. I can run through a basic proof if you like, but a good course in economics would explain this much better than I can. The only issue is the cost of transport, which isn't much compared to the profit involved.

Also, you seem to be advocating protectionism. That very rarely benefits anyone in society. Bastiat would like a word with you.
Opening our borders to foreign products has ruined the Greek economy and destroyed countless jobs. When the Greek farmer has to compete with the Egyptian one whose living standard is living in the street, he inevitably falls down to that standard. This is not just theory like the courses you have taken, this is fact that has been proven repeatedly and is going on right now. Protectionism would definitely benefit the Greek people, as their products would cease to rot in shelves.
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Old 11-29-2011, 07:06 AM   #31
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Default Re: Political Compasses Where Do You Stand?

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Originally Posted by Pumpkineater View Post
Opening our borders to foreign products has ruined the Greek economy and destroyed countless jobs. When the Greek farmer has to compete with the Egyptian one whose living standard is living in the street, he inevitably falls down to that standard. This is not just theory like the courses you have taken, this is fact that has been proven repeatedly and is going on right now. Protectionism would definitely benefit the Greek people, as their products would cease to rot in shelves.
I was under the impression that the Greek economy collapsed because the government's right hand didn't know what it's left hand was doing with various monies. Also, CL already addressed that: "True, it means that some people may need to change professions..."
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Old 11-29-2011, 12:06 PM   #32
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Default Re: Political Compasses Where Do You Stand?

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Originally Posted by Pumpkineater View Post
Opening our borders to foreign products has ruined the Greek economy and destroyed countless jobs. When the Greek farmer has to compete with the Egyptian one whose living standard is living in the street, he inevitably falls down to that standard. This is not just theory like the courses you have taken, this is fact that has been proven repeatedly and is going on right now. Protectionism would definitely benefit the Greek people, as their products would cease to rot in shelves.
The whole point of a free market is that people produce what the consumers demand. If there is no demand for the product you sell, perhaps it would be better for you to change professions. The only time the theory breaks down is when people are unable or unwilling to do so. Is there really nothing else your country can produce?
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Old 11-29-2011, 12:33 PM   #33
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Default Re: Political Compasses Where Do You Stand?

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I was under the impression that the Greek economy collapsed because the government's right hand didn't know what it's left hand was doing with various monies. Also, CL already addressed that: "True, it means that some people may need to change professions..."
"Changing professions" is not that trivial for a farmer who has been doing this for his whole life. Theory like this will fail in implementation, and those people will be left unemployed.
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The whole point of a free market is that people produce what the consumers demand. If there is no demand for the product you sell, perhaps it would be better for you to change professions. The only time the theory breaks down is when people are unable or unwilling to do so. Is there really nothing else your country can produce?
There is demand for food, the open border-policy is re-directing that demand to foreign countries with worse living standards, thus starving Greece of capital. The theory breaks down because the people and unable to compete with foreign farmers and change profession, considering the already huge unemployment that exists due to the economic crisis. This leads to a vicious circle that will only be broken when we leave the Eurozone and bring protectionism in to save us.
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Old 11-29-2011, 01:10 PM   #34
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Default Re: Political Compasses Where Do You Stand?

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when we leave the Eurozone and bring protectionism in to save us.
Ah hahaha, hahahaha, hahaha.

Ha.

If Greece leaves the Eurozone now, it loses the Euro. And it is no position todo so. It could wait for the bailout then bolt, hoping it can set up a currency backed by the bailout's value. Given the heavy tax evasion and corruption in Greece at the moment, that isn't going to happen, and would probably make things worse.

That doesn't make many EU policies not terrible ideas. That includes the Euro's development, given the number of bailouts being thrown around. Capitalism breaks down at the 'too big to fail' stage, where upon those at the top who make bad decisions have a safety net that those who cannot find work are usually deemed undeserving of in many systems. And of course, the Euro has reached that stage, given that nearly all the EU uses it.

More on topic, getting personal sorces of less than 60% on the second test is a clear sign of evilness. Why? It suggests you support the draft*, ID cards** or censorship***.

*However, the draft is less evil in Hitler-type issues. But that needs both genocidal goals and the means to achieve them on a potenially continental scale. Other genocides can be dealt with by the people who signed up for the military.
**Waste of money, invasion of privacy, don't reduce indentity theft and insidious Orwellian creep. Must I go on?
***Censorship = Bad. Because you're usually trying to hide something. Like war crimes.
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Last edited by hyperme; 11-29-2011 at 01:11 PM. Reason: them whos. the yous are drafted.
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Old 11-29-2011, 02:53 PM   #35
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Default Re: Political Compasses Where Do You Stand?

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"Changing professions" is not that trivial for a farmer who has been doing this for his whole life. Theory like this will fail in implementation, and those people will be left unemployed.

There is demand for food, the open border-policy is re-directing that demand to foreign countries with worse living standards, thus starving Greece of capital. The theory breaks down because the people and unable to compete with foreign farmers and change profession, considering the already huge unemployment that exists due to the economic crisis. This leads to a vicious circle that will only be broken when we leave the Eurozone and bring protectionism in to save us.
Given that there's already an issue with unemployment, wouldn't it be reasonable to try to lower the cost of living to help the unemployed? If the cost of living is low, people are able to take jobs at lower wages, and employers are able to hire more people. That includes the displaced farmers.

Refusing free trade necessarily drives prices up, as you're refusing the cheap foreign goods. This raises the cost of living. Thus, workers need higher wages to get by. Then employers cannot afford to hire as many employees, and you end up with unemployment. This perpetuates the problem you're trying to fix.
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Old 11-30-2011, 08:42 AM   #36
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Default Re: Political Compasses Where Do You Stand?

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Ah hahaha, hahahaha, hahaha.

Ha.

If Greece leaves the Eurozone now, it loses the Euro. And it is no position todo so. It could wait for the bailout then bolt, hoping it can set up a currency backed by the bailout's value. Given the heavy tax evasion and corruption in Greece at the moment, that isn't going to happen, and would probably make things worse.

That doesn't make many EU policies not terrible ideas. That includes the Euro's development, given the number of bailouts being thrown around. Capitalism breaks down at the 'too big to fail' stage, where upon those at the top who make bad decisions have a safety net that those who cannot find work are usually deemed undeserving of in many systems. And of course, the Euro has reached that stage, given that nearly all the EU uses it.
What do you mean we "lose" the Euro? The Euro is one of the main things that destroyed our economy. A strong currency has to come with a strong production. Otherwise it will and has crippled the economy. While the Euro would accurately represent the German economy, it suffocates the Greek one.
Quote:
More on topic, getting personal sorces of less than 60% on the second test is a clear sign of evilness. Why? It suggests you support the draft*, ID cards** or censorship***.

*However, the draft is less evil in Hitler-type issues. But that needs both genocidal goals and the means to achieve them on a potenially continental scale. Other genocides can be dealt with by the people who signed up for the military.
**Waste of money, invasion of privacy, don't reduce indentity theft and insidious Orwellian creep. Must I go on?
***Censorship = Bad. Because you're usually trying to hide something. Like war crimes.
You are right about those things, but I am going to say that getting a score of less than 100% is a sign of evilness. By definition, a free country doesn't regulate what consenting adults do in the privacy of their home. This applies to both of the options you omitted.
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Given that there's already an issue with unemployment, wouldn't it be reasonable to try to lower the cost of living to help the unemployed? If the cost of living is low, people are able to take jobs at lower wages, and employers are able to hire more people. That includes the displaced farmers.

Refusing free trade necessarily drives prices up, as you're refusing the cheap foreign goods. This raises the cost of living. Thus, workers need higher wages to get by. Then employers cannot afford to hire as many employees, and you end up with unemployment. This perpetuates the problem you're trying to fix.
It is more complex than that. Goods like cars, houses, electronics and power are imported at high prices, while the only things we import cheaply are things that can be produced in Greece, like food. This cripples the economy as it destroys countless jobs without significantly lowering the standard of living. Things that can be produced inside a country shouldn't be imported.
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Old 11-30-2011, 09:45 AM   #37
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What do you mean we "lose" the Euro? The Euro is one of the main things that destroyed our economy. A strong currency has to come with a strong production. Otherwise it will and has crippled the economy. While the Euro would accurately represent the German economy, it suffocates the Greek one.
You do realize that without the Euro Greece will to issue a new currency? And doing that without a okay economy is rather difficult. Additionally, Greece's current finacial position is kind of abysmal. Unless the governemt can cut back on corruption and tax evasion, a Greek currency valued near the British Pound, American Dollar or Euro is a pipe dream.

Furthermore, EU regulations apparent demand to override national ones at all times shot your economy to bits, since higher import taxation would avoided your farmer thing. Why Greece has low import tax on non-EU perishable goods is a mystery, however. Occupy all the places!

Quote:
You are right about those things, but I am going to say that getting a score of less than 100% is a sign of evilness. By definition, a free country doesn't regulate what consenting adults do in the privacy of their home. This applies to both of the options you omitted.
The drug and consent ones are more of sign of low level 'for the greater good'. Which isn't a good position, since it makes you more usable. Or something like that.
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