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Old 08-01-2014, 01:34 PM   #1
tyconger191
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Default Alternate Reality Discussion

This is a thread for discussion.

Scenario:
We live in an alternate reality where cloning is so advanced that people are able to clone anything, this includes any form of life! They are able to clone our food supplies and power supplies. They have managed to clone energy itself. How would this impact everyone?

My thoughts: What would happen to $? I would imagine we'd need some sort of bribe in order to keep people working and doing jobs that were still important like law enforcement? But if $ wouldn't be as valuable anymore, then how in the world would we pull off a big enough bribe to keep these people doing jobs that still need to be done? Since you can clone just about anything you desire at this stage, I would think the only things that would actually have value are knowledge, large things like homes, treatment and well probably various other things, that is actually a pretty good bribe, those things are all important and good, but would it really be enough to keep people employed, assuming that currency even still is around at this point? There are probably other things I didn't mention that can't really be cloned, but the point is, if this were to happen would money be important enough to keep people employed? You can correct me if I failed to take something into consideration or something, those are my thoughts. I don't know actually... I think something could be worked out, I believe that it wouldn't be completely worthless, but I would imagine crime would be through the roof and the currency itself would be cloned. Feel free to contribute to this discussion about what would happen in a fictional alternate reality where anything could be cloned.

What I am saying is, would people slack off if cloning became this advanced or would we still have a justice system where it wouldn't be like the wild west and wouldn't be essentially crime city.
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Old 08-01-2014, 01:34 PM   #2
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Default Re: Alternate Reality Discussion

The theme of this thread is 'future'.
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Old 08-01-2014, 02:21 PM   #3
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Default Re: Alternate Reality Discussion

In star trek's original run some aliens tempt the crew with gemstones, but they mention that they can make as many of them as they want in their fabricator bay and turn the aliens down. I'd say that tradition and self satisfaction would keep people doing jobs, with a little help from propaganda as to the social position of having a job and a refined type of patriotism to advancing the species/

If you look at the hunger games or WALL-E, people have turned to entertainment's ease of access to ignore other problems, but as soon as they get some backbone and look at themselves they revolt against the current state of things, which makes the chance of actually reaching the stage they were at in the beginning of the movie kinda questionable.
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Old 08-01-2014, 02:48 PM   #4
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In star trek's original run some aliens tempt the crew with gemstones, but they mention that they can make as many of them as they want in their fabricator bay and turn the aliens down. I'd say that tradition and self satisfaction would keep people doing jobs, with a little help from propaganda as to the social position of having a job and a refined type of patriotism to advancing the species/

If you look at the hunger games or WALL-E, people have turned to entertainment's ease of access to ignore other problems, but as soon as they get some backbone and look at themselves they revolt against the current state of things, which makes the chance of actually reaching the stage they were at in the beginning of the movie kinda questionable.
But think of how crimes have become more advanced based on history, don't you think they will end up inevitably getting too advanced at this point in time? Don't you think that any crimes that would happen would be massive? Especially if we step back and look at Hitler, who is to say there won't be another one of those? And with cloning technology this advanced, who is to say another one of those would fail this time. If someone with as malicious intents as he came to be, how would we be prepared to stop them? Whoever that might be, that person would be able to clone weapons, but the biggest weapon they could clone would be themself! I mean, if one Hitler was capable of doing all that, imagine what a hundred could do! It would be a living nightmare! If the jobs would still be manageable, do you think justice would?
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Old 08-01-2014, 02:51 PM   #5
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Default Re: Alternate Reality Discussion

I guess if you are saying there would be no need for crime and therefore it wouldn't happen, I would have to disagree because the human mind is such a scary thing that I think no matter what certain minds are eventually going to resort to evil due to the fact of how events play out having to do with their mental health.
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Old 08-01-2014, 03:31 PM   #6
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Default Re: Alternate Reality Discussion

What you are talking about is known as a post-scarcity economy. When we can do things without worry for loss of resources. Minecraft creative mode is a good example of what may eventually happen in a post-scarcity economy. (Cops and the like would most likely do their jobs because they feel a sense of purpose to do so. Both the Search and Rescue and the fire brigade in my home town are run purely by volunteers.)
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Old 08-01-2014, 04:24 PM   #7
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Default Re: Alternate Reality Discussion

Still, I think that the cops would be overwhelmed by such problems if they developed in secrecy.
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Old 08-01-2014, 05:03 PM   #8
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Still, I think that the cops would be overwhelmed by such problems if they developed in secrecy.
Why would they? You seem to ignore the fact that, in general, most crimes become pointless in a post-scarcity economy.
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Old 08-01-2014, 05:28 PM   #9
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Why would they? You seem to ignore the fact that, in general, most crimes become pointless in a post-scarcity economy.
There are crimes specifically committed for thrill. There are crimes committed out of insanity. What crimes are you saying lose their motive? I think that a lot of crimes having to deal with greed might be as you would put it 'pointless'. I just don't understand what you are getting at. Are you saying the fact that we would have this never ending amount of supplies would cause a decline in crime because of the fact that everyone would be satisfied and with having this infinite amount of supplies there would be a lack of dark intentions because there would be no greed to fuel those intentions. Since there wouldn't be greed as a result of not having limited supplies? If that is what you are saying, how do you justify that greed is the primary motive for all criminals. And how do you justify that everyone will have that same mindset of feeling satisfied. Who is not to say that the fortune for one person may be having infinite supplies, but the fortune to another person would be experiencing the thrill of crimes. If I totally misinterpreted what you said, please help me out here. I just think that crime will be existent in all periods of time, but what there is available to those acting out those crimes won't always be there. Like for example this advanced cloning technology we are talking about. Not to mention if someone falls into a psychosis pretty frightening things can happen. Infinite supplies do not cure mental health.
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Old 08-01-2014, 06:36 PM   #10
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Default Re: Alternate Reality Discussion

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There are crimes specifically committed for thrill. There are crimes committed out of insanity. What crimes are you saying lose their motive? I think that a lot of crimes having to deal with greed might be as you would put it 'pointless'. I just don't understand what you are getting at. Are you saying the fact that we would have this never ending amount of supplies would cause a decline in crime because of the fact that everyone would be satisfied and with having this infinite amount of supplies there would be a lack of dark intentions because there would be no greed to fuel those intentions. Since there wouldn't be greed as a result of not having limited supplies? If that is what you are saying, how do you justify that greed is the primary motive for all criminals. And how do you justify that everyone will have that same mindset of feeling satisfied. Who is not to say that the fortune for one person may be having infinite supplies, but the fortune to another person would be experiencing the thrill of crimes. If I totally misinterpreted what you said, please help me out here. I just think that crime will be existent in all periods of time, but what there is available to those acting out those crimes won't always be there. Like for example this advanced cloning technology we are talking about. Not to mention if someone falls into a psychosis pretty frightening things can happen. Infinite supplies do not cure mental health.
Hence the "most" included, which you kindly bolded. I don't think there would be no crime, but I suspect what is left would be impulsive 'for the thrill' crime and brooding 'not mentally stable' crime. Both of these are generally small scale crimes (that don't involve many people) and are not the kind of "secret" crimes you purport earlier. The cops who choose to do their jobs for the sake of humanity should be able to amply handle these crimes. As for big overshadowing crimes, like a mafia, the cops can't handle them now, so your point is moot.

I think, more interestingly, that governments would need to be recreated from scratch. They currently operate in a way that doesn't work post-scarcity, and so reaching this state, if it were possible, would be actively inhibited by those in power, due to it taking their power away in the process.
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Old 08-01-2014, 08:44 PM   #11
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Hence the "most" included, which you kindly bolded. I don't think there would be no crime, but I suspect what is left would be impulsive 'for the thrill' crime and brooding 'not mentally stable' crime. Both of these are generally small scale crimes (that don't involve many people) and are not the kind of "secret" crimes you purport earlier. The cops who choose to do their jobs for the sake of humanity should be able to amply handle these crimes. As for big overshadowing crimes, like a mafia, the cops can't handle them now, so your point is moot.

I think, more interestingly, that governments would need to be recreated from scratch. They currently operate in a way that doesn't work post-scarcity, and so reaching this state, if it were possible, would be actively inhibited by those in power, due to it taking their power away in the process.
I know you are still thinking that these crimes would be committed on a small scale, but have you considered what racism, sexism and harmful beliefs might do? Let me know what you think after adding that to the equation of self-cloning.

On the subject of a government being remade from scratch, I think, that in itself would lead to crime because I think somewhere in that time the government would have to be really weak.

BTW, I highly disagree with the bolded text. Shootings in theaters and such are perfect examples of common large scale crimes that are constantly being executed out of mental instability. It is pretty depressing actually.
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Old 08-01-2014, 09:36 PM   #12
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Default Re: Alternate Reality Discussion

I consider that a small scale crime. My point is that, with key exceptions (ones motivated by large groups of hateful, like-minded people, something that, as I said, isn't easily curbed today) these will be executed by individuals or small groups. No smoke and mirrors, no secrets, just crime. These shooters could, in a post-scarcity situation, also be curbed by the other people in the theater. It's a "for the good of humanity" approach to things.

As conspirators, especially those who have a shared prejudice, I admit it would be difficult to stop them. But it is already anyway. Something like 9/11 would still be possible in the post-scarcity world, but it also happened in this one.

I suppose the difference between you and I is that I trust humanity to be able to continue wanting to be just, even when the incentive for justice is taken away.

I will concede, however, that more vigilantes would appear. (Using the word to talk about someone who fights for what they think is right, even if it goes against the law) I don't really have a problem with this.
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Old 08-02-2014, 08:23 AM   #13
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I consider that a small scale crime. My point is that, with key exceptions (ones motivated by large groups of hateful, like-minded people, something that, as I said, isn't easily curbed today) these will be executed by individuals or small groups. No smoke and mirrors, no secrets, just crime. These shooters could, in a post-scarcity situation, also be curbed by the other people in the theater. It's a "for the good of humanity" approach to things.

As conspirators, especially those who have a shared prejudice, I admit it would be difficult to stop them. But it is already anyway. Something like 9/11 would still be possible in the post-scarcity world, but it also happened in this one.

I suppose the difference between you and I is that I trust humanity to be able to continue wanting to be just, even when the incentive for justice is taken away.

I will concede, however, that more vigilantes would appear. (Using the word to talk about someone who fights for what they think is right, even if it goes against the law) I don't really have a problem with this.
Do you mean to say justice will cancel out crime?

You would have to understand that the justice could even become corrupt and the fact that we have a justice system that manages society, doesn't mean it will always stay that way. It isn't that I believe the justice system would fail in such a case. It is that I believe that the regular crimes would be amplified and even the measures taken for protecting society might be risky, just as they always have been...

You might say that for every army of criminals there could be an army of cloned cops. But who is to say that the cloned cops won't be corrupted cops. I just don't see there always being that perfect balance of crime and justice. I suppose that is where we disagree on things because I truly believe things could fall apart and that the world at this cloning stage has a 50% chance of falling apart and a 50% chance of maintaining peace. The way I view what you are saying is that you are saying the world has a 100% chance of maintaining peace and I am guessing you have been basing that on the fact that the world hasn't come to an end. I just don't think that the morals of people would be strong enough to combat the evil of people. Not to mention, I think a lot of good ethical people would consider self-cloning an immoral thing, therefore they would be weaker forces of good because there would be less of them.
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Old 08-02-2014, 04:32 PM   #14
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Default Re: Alternate Reality Discussion

I would never give any societal system a 100% chance of working. You also seem to forget that these police are basically only stopping people who are mentally unstable. There is little to no reason to become corrupt when you can get any resource you want with no cost.
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Old 08-02-2014, 06:29 PM   #15
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Default Re: Alternate Reality Discussion

I think we should just end this as a disagreement. It could probably go on forever otherwise.
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Old 08-02-2014, 09:22 PM   #16
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Default Re: Alternate Reality Discussion

I think what would happen is people would start cloning earth and making there own U-topia
Eventually the planets will pull farther and farther apart until the so far away from any one else and so many generations have past the whole thing would relay its self .-.
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Old 08-03-2014, 12:43 PM   #17
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Default Re: Alternate Reality Discussion

If resources are met, the government can focus on non-matieral issues. If criminals only want to act on a psychological need to destroy or hurt people, then they can be send into a simulation where their is no problem with them fulfilling their desires. Additionally specialty hunting ranges featuring human-eseqe creatures with no brain structure (robotic or cloned ) could answer these urges while simultaneously draining the novelty of acting on them.

9sic0

Let's say a guy who hates school school system's clones several copies of himself with a propensity to go into schools and gun everyone down. There is no need for his clones to have his appearance and weapons could most likely be made privately.

Of course a single school would be affected in the real world, but now , he can do it remotley with perfect confidence that none of the members of his group will not follow through or suspect him of self-preservation. This is an advantage over forming a gang, cult, or dictatorship in the world today.

But then, how does the school system work; how do you know that people who have bored of it haven't just sent in their replacement to take classes while they play hooky?
The amount of duplicity possible in the world of cloning compromises every human relation... not just crime.

Corruption of the justice system itself seems less likely. Like in star trek, any judge or policeman could make himself a pile of gold bars and go to a resort in some (older civilization) that has a normal economy, or make that (nativist) place himself by playing a 1:1 scale game of Civilization 5 on an empty planet.

It is likely that all jobs will be filled by "voluntters" who truly care about their field. The education system will be changed to instill these virtues. The bottom line for me is that main soceity will create a place that discourages use of its unlimited resources and protects its interests from outliers by appeasing their interests.... especially when their interest involves destroying another outlier group.

*plays batman theme*
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