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Old 07-20-2000, 09:00 AM   #1
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On the Underdogs Want Page (www.theunderdogs.org/want.php) there's a game on the want list called Mucho Combat made by Jamul Software. And Jamul software became Hamumu, which brought me here. So basically, give that game to them, and give me credit =-p I bet you don't have it, and I'm strangely confused. OK I'm just going to shut up now.
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Old 07-21-2000, 12:00 AM   #2
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Oh hooray... a pirate site wants one of my games! Well surely I would be happy to provide it! Or I would if I didn't think pirates were the lowest scum on the planet. I take that back - the LOWEST scum are pirates who try to justify their theft with some noble reasoning.



Yes, I made Mucho Kombat, and no, you ain't getting it. Not that it runs anymore anyway. Bleh, pirates.
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Old 07-21-2000, 08:00 AM   #3
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Actually it's far from a pirate site. It's abandonwarez, really old games. At least 5 years old, and are not being sold anymore.
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Old 10-30-2000, 09:00 AM   #4
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I am webmaster of that "pirate" site. I'm not here to defd my site-- I just hope you'll have a chance to wander the site, read the FAQ, read a few reviews. Hopefully you'll see how far from a "pirate" I am. I own over 800 games in original boxes, spent tens of thousands of dollars on games, and *never* upload anything that is still being sold by its publisher to my site. I've received a lot of encouraging e-mails from game designers who are glad to see their games being honored. I hope you'll be one of them.



Anyway, I *am* looking for Mucho Combat, and if you aren't willing to release it into the public domain yet, fine. Please at least put it up for sale on your on-line store, so I can at least order it, and review the game on my site so I can direct others to buy this forgotten underdog



Thanks,

-Underdogs

www.theunderdogs.org
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Old 10-30-2000, 03:00 PM   #5
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Good points. I don't disagree with you-- all I can offer is that



a) Quite a few game designers DO grant permission for me to put up their game for free downloads. They just can't say it specifically because many times they are *not* the ones who own copyrights, unfortunately. Examples are evryware.com, cinemaware.com, and Norm Koger, designer of Age of Rifles, etc. Sites like mine are the *only* way people can get some games nowadays. Without abandonware sites, a lot of games will simply disappear forever.



b) Your points would be a lot more valid *if* the copyright holders DO care about protecting their copyright AND care about gamers getting the oldies they love, in equal measure. The problem is, they don't. Hence, the disclaimer on my site: If you own copyright to any of these games and do not want to see them on the site, please say so. To date, I've only received 2 requests from copyright holders, and in both cases I took the games down at their requests. Of course, I also asked them to make the games available to the public, to no avail.



c) I DO actively seek out permission ALL the time. I'm sure you'll appreciate the fact, however, that MANY of the publishers I feature on my site (e.g. QQP, Telarium, and many, many others) are long gone, and tracking the copyright holders down is almost impossible.



d) We are *game collectors*. We're doing this ONLY to make games available for fellow collectors-- great games that *deserve* to still be played and not disappear. We patch old games to run on new computers (see my copy of Balance of Power 1985, for example, which Chris Crawford himself released as freeware). We scan manuals. We actively hunt down last copies of mouldy oldies. We consider ourselves gaming "historians," not "pirates."



e) I'm *not* trying to glorify it. That's why in the FAQ we say in big bold letters that abandonware IS ILLEGAL. But the point is, I think uploading these games is "illegal" inasmuch as jaywalking is illegal. I know it is illegal, but it shouldn't be. Any educated person browsing my site will *recognize* right away that this is illegal. But as for whether or not it's morally defensible is up to them to decide.



f) Collectability value: This *isn't* eroded at all by my offering these games, at least from my perspective. WHY do you think I'm uploading games that I spent years looking for, in many cases paid hundreds of dollars for? From where I stand, the games remain "rare" and "collectible" -- because I have the original copies, in boxes. I have the cool 3 metal robots of 2400 A.D., for example. It doesn't matter to me if 5 million people download the game-- only a handful would still have these robots. In your beanie baby example, this means *I* would still keep the babies. Why is it so bad to pass it around so others can enjoy the *content* of the game as well, if Origin no longer derives revenues from it?



Well, thanks for browsing my site anyway, and for information about Mucho Combat. At last I can remove it from my Want List.. although if you ARE interested in getting it to work for new computers, but don't have time to spend on it, I have a team of people who are more than capable to help you patch it to work on new computers.



Cheers,

-Underdogs

www.theunderdogs.org
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Old 10-30-2000, 05:00 PM   #6
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I forgot to add that I did in fact remove one game (Rise of the West) at request of the developer, precisely for one reason you stated: settlement of a lawsuit.



The bottom line I guess is that I'm not only willing, but will be *glad* to remove games from my site if the copyright holder so wishes-- contacting me at least shows that they *care* about their copyrights, and I always respect that. Gamers' detriment notwithstanding, of course.



Looking forward to hear from you about the possibility that Mucho Combat would be back, in one way or another It's not on my Want List for no reason, you know-- I actually tried that
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Old 10-31-2000, 01:00 AM   #7
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I did browse the site, which is how I found that you are giving away free copies of games you don't own the copyright to. This is not only illegal, it's immoral. Even if they are no longer available for sale, it is the copyright holder's right to determine whether or not these games should be available to the public. That is the reason intellectual property is worth a lot of money - because the holder of it can determine what is done with it. You are circumventing that basic right and breaking the law. Sure, many of the authors are excited to see their old work available to the public, but *they do not own the copyright to that work*. When they had it published, they gave away the rights to the publisher. The publisher then chose to let it die rather than release to the public domain. That's their right. Probably a fair number of them would be willing to grant permission to see it released free if they are no longer selling it. But not all would, and it is not your or anyone else's right to decide that choice for them. Oftentimes they have good reason - rereleases, 'greatest hits', 'classic packs', that sort of thing - companies find they want to go back to an extremely old game they still hold the rights to and milk it for more money. And why shouldn't they? If people are still interested, as your site proves, then they deserve compensation for providing that game to the people! So, many companies will specifically avoid releasing a game to the public domain so that they can later revisit it in a remake or just plain rerelease.

This sort of thing also hurts the used game business for obvious reasons - can you imagine if people could get all the retired beanie babies for free since they're no longer sold? Whoops, there goes the entire concept of collectibility and value.

There's also things like my game Eddie Galaxy. It's not for sale anymore due to a settlement of a lawsuit. So would you put that on your site? If you did, you'd be defying what the two parties agreed upon as their fair settlement. Just an odd example, but as you can see, games can be off the market for a wide variety of reasons.

This whole thing is something that people really don't REALIZE is wrong and harmful, and that's the most insidious thing. A site like yours glorifies it and makes it out to be something noble and wonderful, furthering the whole piracy problem. Well it isn't noble. It's a violation of the rights of others, rights that generally cost those others a lot of money. It all comes down to a very simple IP issue - the owner of the rights has SOLE control over the distribution of the intellectual property. You can ask them nicely to release it into the public domain, but you can't decide for them that it should be. Yes, this means that some masterpieces may well be lost. If you're THAT concerned, then hang onto your copies for however long until the rights expire, and release them. Of course that takes decades (and I suppose with corporation stuff, it would be decades from when the company folds?? I don't know... I don't get this junk, but I know it's a long time). And you say "but nobody will be able to play the games when they're that old!" Exactly. And if the IP owner doesn't want the game played, that's their right. If they did want that, they'd release it themselves.



So, my summary is this: you are trampling on the rights of publishers. They're big greedy corporations and what-not, so hippies say "hooray, down with the man!", but that doesn't make you any less morally bereft than the Napster gang - you're still infringing the rights of another. You don't want your rights infringed, so why are you doing it to someone else?



As for Mucho Kombat, you probably don't want a game that crashes on startup. I'm just guessing. It used to be pretty fun, but I sure am curious how anyone has ever heard of it, since A> it was never finished, and B> probably less than a dozen people have played it. I'm flattered that everyone wants to see it and all, but if it WERE usable in some degree, I WOULD be giving it away. After all, I have the original SPISPOPD still on my site, and that's not the most functional thing in the world.



That's the way it is in the world according to me, and that's the end of my rant. Now let's all get back to playing games.
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Old 11-01-2000, 05:00 AM   #8
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I would also recommend that Jammul reads

www.theunderdogs.org/Archives.htm
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Old 11-18-2000, 09:00 PM   #9
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To the Jamul software representative:



Remember me, sir? Death Adder? We spoke briefly about how I had a copy of "MUCHO KOMBAT" which I had downloaded from a BBS in 1992? We are not referring to your newer version of the game. We are referring to the old one, where there is only one selectable character (Reggae Boy), who is very small (flea-sized). The version which was uploaded to "The Dream", which was a BBS in my area.



You told me when I e-mailed you that you were working on an updated Mucho Kombat game. This is -not- the one I speak of. You haven't finished your updated version, and that's fine. I would never bother you about code you hadn't even finished yet. What I am trying to do is just get back a very small, 400k game which I really enjoyed playing a few years ago. That's it. It wasn't even copywrited, in case you remember. It was something you were working on for people to enjoy - so why now won't you let us enjoy it?



If you have a problem with abandonware sites having the game, that's understandable. At least, though - if you have a copy, send it my way. I will keep it under wraps if you so desire. I will do whatever. Just please pass it on to me if you have it. I really enjoyed that game, and ever since my copy was lost due to a bad disk, I have been searching for another one ever since.



Thanks for your time. Have an enjoyable day, sir.





Death Adder

[deathadder@superfighter.com]
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