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Old 10-09-2009, 09:55 AM   #21
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Default Re: Debating Society

The only creatures on the planet that seem to communicate with each other and think at vaguely the same level we do are chimpanzees, and we're not particulary horrible to them.
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Old 10-09-2009, 11:07 AM   #22
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Would it be okay if another "superior" species used us for sports and entertainment? For vigourous reactions to this, see the Cuddleyum thread in Total Mayhem.
If you aren't a Christian, chances are you won't quite understand. If you are, go read the Bible.
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Old 10-10-2009, 08:26 AM   #23
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If you aren't a Christian, chances are you won't quite understand. If you are, go read the Bible.
Religion: The idea of being eternally messed with.

On topic: I don't know why people are calling it "degrading" when self-esteem doesn't seem to be a huge issue with animals.
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Old 10-10-2009, 09:16 AM   #24
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On topic: I don't know why people are calling it "degrading" when self-esteem doesn't seem to be a huge issue with animals.
i have to disagree, have you ever seen a cat/dog/anything that's been completely shaved? not exactly the highest self-esteem there... animals most certainly have self-esteem and can be degraded, another example, if i yell at my Puppy for doing something bad, she obviously feels bad about herself and you can tell her confidence level isnt too high.
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Old 10-10-2009, 09:58 AM   #25
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Religion: The idea of being eternally messed with.
You obviously don't understand.

Ever notice how our species is the only one advanced? I think that says something about our being superior. If another species came, it wouldn't be the same to use us for sport, because we are different than animals. We have more than just basic instinct.
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Old 10-10-2009, 10:01 AM   #26
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You obviously don't understand.

Ever notice how our species is the only one advanced? I think that says something about our being superior. If another species came, it wouldn't be the same to use us for sport, because we are different than animals. We have more than just basic instinct.
I agree somewhat. As long as we keep all of the species that have the potential to become intelligent in check, we should be fine.
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Old 10-10-2009, 12:26 PM   #27
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This is a circular argument. You could also say that as long as we continue to ignore the signs of intelligence in other animals, we can continue to believe that we are the only ones with intelligence. I think it is clear that humans are the only animals on Earth making widespread use of machines and technology. But there are other signs of intelligence in other species.
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Old 10-10-2009, 12:32 PM   #28
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This is a circular argument. You could also say that as long as we continue to ignore the signs of intelligence in other animals, we can continue to believe that we are the only ones with intelligence. I think it is clear that humans are the only animals on Earth making widespread use of machines and technology. But there are other signs of intelligence in other species.
But they still aren't as smart or as powerful as humans. Thus we claim inherent superiority to them.

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Old 10-10-2009, 12:42 PM   #29
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Default Re: Debating Society

I'll point out right now that some apes can learn American Sign Language.

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But they still aren't as smart or as powerful as humans. Thus we claim inherent superiority over them.
Man had always assumed that he was more intelligent than dolphins because he had achieved so much - the wheel, New York, wars and so on - whilst all the dolphins had ever done was muck about in the water having a good time. But conversely, the dolphins had always believed that they were far more intelligent than man - for precisely the same reasons.
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Old 10-10-2009, 12:47 PM   #30
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Then I suggest we rid our waters of dolphins.
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Old 10-10-2009, 12:54 PM   #31
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To the topic of the debate, I am against rodeos, dog racing, circuses, etc. Not only are we using the animals as entertainment without consent, but the majority of the time the animals are treated very poorly backstage.

Regarding the religious debate, Baconstrips, I am Christian and I find myself agreeing with Ubernoob more than with you. I find no reason why a loving God would not give animals souls but would give humans, with their capabilities to be corrupt, lazy, and evil, souls.

And if a race with superior technology to humans came along, I agree, how would you feel if they killed us, put us in pens and forced us to fight each other, forced us to run races, and tortured us just for fun?
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Old 10-10-2009, 01:05 PM   #32
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And if a race with superior technology to humans came along, I agree, how would you feel if they killed us, put us in pens and forced us to fight each other, forced us to run races, and tortured us just for fun?
Humans already do all of that to each other. Except maybe the torturing for fun.
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Old 10-10-2009, 01:20 PM   #33
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And if a race with superior technology to humans came along, I agree, how would you feel if they killed us, put us in pens and forced us to fight each other, forced us to run races, and tortured us just for fun?
I'm guessing these aren't in a specific order. I don't think corpses can race around a track.

But yes, animals do need to be treated better. Although some sports look alright, backstage bad things could be happening. It's one of the reasons I like PETA. They tend to go overboard on some issues, but they also help animals, so they're good in my book.
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Old 10-10-2009, 01:26 PM   #34
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I support animal welfare as an idea, but I think PETA takes it too far, hurting humans to help animals.
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Old 10-10-2009, 06:57 PM   #35
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Should we be willing to hurt or at least restrict humans in order to save animals? I think so. But there has to be balance, as in all things. I don't know where we should draw the line; clearly for example we as animals have the right to feed on other animals (though some would dispute this.) I think we should be a lot kinder to animals than we generally are. However I think the current trend towards pampering dogs and cats and providing them with medical care comparable to human health care is going too far. We shouldn't be treating animals better than humans. The issue is very complicated. I say let's be ruled by our hearts, as long as we're not being irrational.
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Old 10-11-2009, 05:58 AM   #36
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I agree. I think things PETA is saying, like that we need to all become vegans, are going too far, but I do, in essence, agree with their basic idea that animals should have rights as well. Not the same rights as humans, but still some sorts of rights. For example, I think dairy farms, slaughterhouses and so on should have very strict restrictions on the way they're allowed to treat the animals, such as legal minimums for habitat size per animal, amount of food, and laws against reasonably avoidable pain inflicted on them.
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Old 10-11-2009, 09:51 AM   #37
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I agree. I think things PETA is saying, like that we need to all become vegans, are going too far, but I do, in essence, agree with their basic idea that animals should have rights as well. Not the same rights as humans, but still some sorts of rights. For example, I think dairy farms, slaughterhouses and so on should have very strict restrictions on the way they're allowed to treat the animals, such as legal minimums for habitat size per animal, amount of food, and laws against reasonably avoidable pain inflicted on them.
*Ding!* There we go!
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Old 10-11-2009, 11:45 AM   #38
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A debate here will go on for 30 posts.
It seems we have broken the rules...

I think if an animal doesn't want to do it, then it is cruel to make it do it.
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Old 10-11-2009, 12:50 PM   #39
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Regarding the religious debate, Baconstrips, I am Christian and I find myself agreeing with Ubernoob more than with you. I find no reason why a loving God would not give animals souls but would give humans, with their capabilities to be corrupt, lazy, and evil, souls.
You're a Christian, yet you ignore the part where the Bible says we were given dominion over the other animals? It says we were made in God's image, not the animals.
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Old 10-11-2009, 03:15 PM   #40
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And this means we're allowed to mistreat animals? Obama has Dominion over the US, but is he allowed to torture its citizens?

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