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Old 10-11-2009, 04:07 PM   #41
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And this means we're allowed to mistreat animals? Obama has Dominion over the US, but is he allowed to torture its citizens?
I'm not arguing that we can mistreat animals. I never was. I was arguing that we CAN use other animals for our use. Like horses. Mistreating them is horrible, but using to pull carts isn't.
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Old 10-11-2009, 04:10 PM   #42
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And I never said I was against using animals for fair work like that. Read my post above. I think we can continue to "use" animals, but I also think much stricter laws should be passed saying we need to treat them fairly.
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Old 10-11-2009, 04:15 PM   #43
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That would be good, but have fun enforcing that.
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Old 10-11-2009, 04:17 PM   #44
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Ok, I think it's time we defined "soul." What do people mean by "soul?" I suspect several of the people posting in this thread have very different definitions.
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Old 10-11-2009, 05:34 PM   #45
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Defining soul is a tough job. So I'll explain what I believe, if that is helpful. I believe that soul is our essence; it is what we are and eternal, whereas our human bodies are merely temporary shells which we use during the course of a lifetime here in the physical universe. I believe animals are also souls, and soul equals soul; there is no inherent superiority of human souls over animal souls, although clearly there are differences between the capabilities of human bodies and intelligence vs. animal bodies and intelligences. In my opinion, the passage in the Bible where it is said humans have dominion over animals because humans are made in God's image is very easy to misinterpret; our souls are equal but our consciousness is not. It is because our consciousness is superior for the most part to animals' that we have a duty to take care of them and shepherd them. But I certainly don't believe that our consciousness is equal to God's, although as soul we are all sparks of God, including animals; we are a reflection of God, but so are animals, merely a different reflection.
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Old 10-12-2009, 09:58 AM   #46
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[stuff about the soul - clipped for redundancy]
Do plants or bacterium have souls?
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Old 10-12-2009, 02:05 PM   #47
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Yes, plants and bacteria are soul as well. So are rocks. But they are in a different state of consciousness, obviously, than people with human bodies.
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Old 10-12-2009, 08:25 PM   #48
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Yes, plants and bacteria are soul as well. So are rocks. But they are in a different state of consciousness, obviously, than people with human bodies.
Now THAT"S a new concept...

How big do the rocks have to be to have a soul? Does one molecule still have a soul? When do the rock "souls" leave the rock and "die"? And if one molecule of rock has a soul, does that mean every single molecule has a soul? And what about atoms? If we break a molecule does into atoms, do we destroy a soul? And what about atoms held together by other forces than covalent bonds, like salt? Does each atom have a soul? Otherwise, when you put salt in water, and the salt dissolves, are we really massacring souls? To many questions...
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Old 10-12-2009, 08:47 PM   #49
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Now THAT"S a new concept...

How big do the rocks have to be to have a soul? Does one molecule still have a soul? When do the rock "souls" leave the rock and "die"? And if one molecule of rock has a soul, does that mean every single molecule has a soul? And what about atoms? If we break a molecule does into atoms, do we destroy a soul? And what about atoms held together by other forces than covalent bonds, like salt? Does each atom have a soul? Otherwise, when you put salt in water, and the salt dissolves, are we really massacring souls? To many questions...
Chemistry class will help answer those questions.
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Old 10-12-2009, 08:49 PM   #50
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How big do the rocks have to be to have a soul? Does one molecule still have a soul? When do the rock "souls" leave the rock and "die"? And if one molecule of rock has a soul, does that mean every single molecule has a soul? And what about atoms? If we break a molecule does into atoms, do we destroy a soul? And what about atoms held together by other forces than covalent bonds, like salt? Does each atom have a soul? Otherwise, when you put salt in water, and the salt dissolves, are we really massacring souls? To many questions...
By roughly the same logic, it's easy to show that free will cannot exist unless you either posit God or assume that subatomic particles have free will as well. Order does not arise from chaos. I also have an interesting argument for the converse, but I'll discuss that some other time.

I don't place much stock in the concept of duality. The body and the "soul" cannot be separated. I don't particularly want to derail the debate, though, so I'll save these arguments for later.

On topic, I don't oppose the use of other animals in sport, so long as they aren't harmed. I can't say I approve of it, but I don't actively disagree. I think the points for this argument have become a touch redundant, though, so I'll leave it at that.
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Old 10-12-2009, 09:34 PM   #51
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Now THAT"S a new concept...

How big do the rocks have to be to have a soul? Does one molecule still have a soul? When do the rock "souls" leave the rock and "die"? And if one molecule of rock has a soul, does that mean every single molecule has a soul? And what about atoms? If we break a molecule does into atoms, do we destroy a soul? And what about atoms held together by other forces than covalent bonds, like salt? Does each atom have a soul? Otherwise, when you put salt in water, and the salt dissolves, are we really massacring souls? To many questions...
You've made a lot of interesting questions and I don't have the answers to most of them. But I can say that soul cannot be destroyed by the destruction of a body. If individual atoms are souls, and I don't know but I don't think they necessarily are, changing the physical properties of the atom would merely release the soul to take on another physical form and have another form of consciousness as an experience. Apparently we have all been reincarnated many times, not just in other human bodies but in lower forms as well. I don't know how far back it goes; were we once bacteria? Viruses? Atoms? Souls also exist outside of the time stream we experience in physical reality, so in other words they have always existed and always will exist, just like God does. But plenty of souls are not actively having experiences in physical human bodies like we are.

I can't prove any of these principles to anyone; it is a matter of direct perception -- either you perceive the truth or you don't. This is similar to having faith except that with faith you're supposed to except the concepts more or less blindly, whereas with direct perception you can ask questions and then perceive the answers. Now I myself happen not to have perceived the truth of things like rocks having souls in much detail. I certainly haven't perceived atoms having souls. So I am essentially taking certain things on faith, or as hypotheticals, for now.
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Old 10-14-2009, 04:41 PM   #52
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...I thought we were debating society, not souls.
Not to be unkind in the slightest, but it seems that we MAY have just veered off from what the discussion was first intended to be.
Oh well, interesting analysis on how conversations progress.
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Old 10-14-2009, 07:19 PM   #53
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I don't think the thread was about debating the subject of society. I think it is a society for the purpose of debating.
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Old 10-14-2009, 07:32 PM   #54
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Well, We could start a new topic, since we are about 50 posts through, and just switch when each topic is done. Does anyone have ideas for what we could debate next?
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Old 10-15-2009, 09:34 AM   #55
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The last topic was pretty good. It strayed into religion, though, which I personally didn't mind. Maybe something about politics? Like, "Democratic societies don't need to be capitalist."
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Old 10-15-2009, 01:11 PM   #56
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No, no, no, no, no! Capitalism is the way we make money! And if you're thinking what I hope you aren't, the government isn't about to run everything in my country!
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Old 10-15-2009, 01:17 PM   #57
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If the government's running everything, it can provide a good service for cheaper than businesses, because the government doesn't need to make any profit, just break even.
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Old 10-15-2009, 03:43 PM   #58
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If the government's running everything, it can provide a good service for cheaper than businesses, because the government doesn't need to make any profit, just break even.

I quite agree
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Old 10-15-2009, 06:05 PM   #59
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Governments should run some things, that they are better at, and other things should be left to private interests. We can have the best of both worlds.
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Old 10-16-2009, 12:11 PM   #60
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*muttered* So far, that doesn't seem to be what they're tryin' to do...
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