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Old 07-28-2011, 08:37 PM   #1
texasjoshua
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Default New Rules Debate

This left off in the old thread but I figured I'd separate it.

For the Most Part I believe that most of these should be decided by host but in the sake of fairness I will post all of them.

What I believe are already in-forced rules.
1A. Deadlines are mandatory for hosts.
2A. Lurking is prohibited

Rules that need discussion

1B. Player Limit Reduced: Maximum should not Exceed(temporary rule):
8;10;12;16;20
(the options)
2B. Lurker List Implemented(Lurker List will contain list of lurkers banned from mafia)

Hosts Decision(in my humble opinion):

1C: Time Sign-up List should be posted.
2C. Backup Kill Senders (Definitely a host thing, way to much regulation)
3C. To Join Game Target Player must have 10+ Posts



These Are the rules on the previous thread, post your opinions in Yes(Pass Rule), No(Not needed), and Host(Hosts Decision) and I will update Vote List

#1B. Post Number as well.

Votes
1A. 1 No 0 Yes 0 Host
2A. 1 No 0 Yes 0 Host
1B. 0 20 0 16 0 12 0 10 0 8 0 Less 1 Host

2B. 0 No 0 Yes 1 Host
1C. 0 No 0 Yes 1 Host
2C. 0 No 0 Yes 1 Host
3C. 0 No 0 Yes 1 Host


Post Your Votes and Opinions.
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Old 07-29-2011, 01:07 AM   #2
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Default Re: New Rules Debate

Here's my opinion. Firstly, rule 1B. More people are playing mafia now (I'll get to that later) so I don't think we need limits anymore.

Secondly, rule 2B. No. No no no. Lurkers should NOT be banned from mafia, because they are potential non-lurking players. The way I see it is this; lurker signs up for game. (they know how to play) Then game starts. Turns out that the host made loads of twists and tweaks to the game that the lurker can't exactly understand. This confusingness might discourage the lurker from posting, and tada, it's a new lurker. My solution to this is to ban any twists or additions of rules to mafia games until a decent number of players are actively playing.

Next up rule 2C since 1C is pretty much decided already: There is no reason to have a backp kill sender. If the Godfather is lurking that's their problem. They shouldn't still get a kill.

And lastly, the most rediculous rule ever, RULE 3C. If this rule ever goes all-hosts I'm probably going to quit mafia. There is no reason that players with less than 10 posts should not be allowed to play. I had less than 10 posts once, and look now I've got 556. If someone who is possibly going to become a regular member discovers mafia before anything else, signs up for a game and is denied, it's going to discourage them from trying again in the future. And people who join the forums just to play mafia are uncommon, but they pop up now and again, and such people should not be barred from playing because they're another potential active player. Barring all these people from playing will end in disaster for the mafia community. EDIT: Also more potential players with less than 10 post attempted to sign up for hyperme's game, and denying them would put us back to square one in terms of getting more players; nobody else actively on other parts of the forums are joining.
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Old 07-29-2011, 03:26 AM   #3
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Default Re: New Rules Debate

Quote:
Originally Posted by Felixrain View Post
My solution to this is to ban any twists or additions of rules to mafia games until a decent number of players are actively playing.
NO. Groups should never be punished for the actions of individuals. If a player can't be bothered to sent a PM to the host to ask about something that confuses them, why should they be allowed to play? I won't look down on not understanding. I will look down on not making an effort. Also, an offiaial list makes me less likely to disallow someone who has stopped lurking.

Quote:
And lastly, the most rediculous rule ever, RULE 3C. If this rule ever goes all-hosts I'm probably going to quit mafia. There is no reason that players with less than 10 posts should not be allowed to play. I had less than 10 posts once, and look now I've got 556. If someone who is possibly going to become a regular member discovers mafia before anything else, signs up for a game and is denied, it's going to discourage them from trying again in the future. And people who join the forums just to play mafia are uncommon, but they pop up now and again, and such people should not be barred from playing because they're another potential active player. Barring all these people from playing will end in disaster for the mafia community.
Go though the signup threads. There are many people in them with only one or two posts. Maybe it should be forced on all hosts, so they don't have to get replacements for people who sign up and disappear. Hamumu is not a Mafia community. There are Mafia communites, and people who want them can go and find them. However, the Mafia subforum is part of a bigger forum, and that is the true.

Quote:
Also more potential players with less than 10 post attempted to sign up for hyperme's game, and denying them would put us back to square one in terms of getting more players; nobody else actively on other parts of the forums are joining.
If it means so much to you, PM the players and get them to post in a few other non-TM boards to raise their post count. I'm interested in running a game that works, not in running a game that doesn't because I let someone who only visited once onto the player list.
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Old 07-29-2011, 09:13 AM   #4
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Default Re: New Rules Debate

Deadlines should really only be mandatory if the game gets too quiet. I'm perfectly happy to let players keep talking as long as they're making progress. However, if the players are too quiet, a deadline helps get the game moving.

Lurking should obviously be prohibited. If you're not going to contribute to the game, don't sign up.

Player limits are the host's responsibility. As a general rule, smaller games make it easier to avoid lurkers, but if the host can make the game function properly with 50 players, that's perfectly acceptable.

I don't think a lurker list would really help. Anyone who wants to host must have already played, and should therefore have a good idea of who tends to lurk.

Hosts are more likely to get active players if you post the signup list shortly before the previous game ends. Of course, that's always hard to judge. Ultimately, it should be the host's decision.

Typically, if the lead mafia doesn't send in a kill, the host sends a PM to the whole mafia team asking for a kill. The highest-ranking mafia who replies decides. Roleblocking, tracking, and other such roles still act as if the leader was sending the kill.

My first post was to sign up for mafia game 15 (before the league split), but I was active in the chatroom, so people knew I wouldn't lurk. I'd generally support only letting people who participate play, but the host has the right to let anyone in.
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Old 07-29-2011, 10:52 AM   #5
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Default Re: New Rules Debate

Deadlines should be mandatory to have, but no limits on what they should be. If the host wants day to last a week unless there's a lynch, so be it.

Lurking is discouraged, but it's always up to the host whether or not to punish it.

Player limit is up to the host. My game coming up will probably only work with a fairly large amount of people, and there will be creative ways of dealing with those that lurk.

I cannot, on this forum, express my opinion on the lurker list. The closest I can come is NO.

As for the rest, yes. Host's decision. In fact, everything should be the host's decision past the barebones requirements, and even those can be changed if the game will still function properly. The rules are there to be treated as rules, but are essentially more like guidelines - Jamul hosted a very creative game that if the rules were enforced strictly would not have happened.

Last edited by Julian; 07-29-2011 at 10:54 AM.
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Old 07-29-2011, 11:21 AM   #6
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Default Re: New Rules Debate

Ok, So it appears that the A's are not very controversial but The B's and C's appear to be wildly divergent. I'd like to remind everyone to keep this friendly, this is a discussion not a automatic change in mafia.


1A. Deadlines are mandatory for hosts.
2A. Lurking is prohibited

1B. Player Limit Reduced: Maximum should not Exceed(temporary rule):
8;10;12;16;20
(the options)
2B. Lurker List Implemented(Lurker List will contain list of lurkers banned from mafia)
1C: Time Sign-up List should be posted.
2C. Backup Kill Senders
3C. To Join Game Target Player must have 10+ Posts





1A. 1 No 2 Yes 0 Host
2A. 2 No 1 Yes 0 Host
1B. 0 20 0 16 0 12 0 10 0 8 0 Less 4 Host

2B. 3 No 0 Yes 0 Host
1C. 0 No 0 Yes 2 Host
2C. 1 No 0 Yes 2 Host
3C. 3 No 0 Yes 1 Host

Hyperme I presumed yours was a No for 3C tell me if that was different.

I did mess with my votes a little so don't freak out at the changes. I personally think most of these should be handled by the host in the appropriate manner as Julian said

"As for the rest, yes. Host's decision. In fact, everything should be the host's decision past the barebones requirements, and even those can be changed if the game will still function properly. The rules are there to be treated as rules, but are essentially more like guidelines - Jamul hosted a very creative game that if the rules were enforced strictly would not have happened."

Cheeselord said,"
Typically, if the lead mafia doesn't send in a kill, the host sends a PM to the whole mafia team asking for a kill. The highest-ranking mafia who replies decides. Roleblocking, tracking, and other such roles still act as if the leader was sending the kill."

Ok that clarifys it for me, I was confused about that fact. That would have significantly effected my last game. I'll play by that the next game I host.

This I also think should be the host decision though. Keep on posting everyone, everyones ideas are welcome.
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Old 07-29-2011, 11:44 AM   #7
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Default Re: New Rules Debate

Quote:
Originally Posted by texasjoshua View Post
Hyperme I presumed yours was a No for 3C tell me if that was different.
I'd actually be interested to see the logic you used to reached this result. I say yes to 3C.
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Old 07-29-2011, 12:28 PM   #8
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Default Re: New Rules Debate

just an idea here: Add a voting option called "lurker bomb"which would kill everyone who hasnt posted in 3 days. just an idea.

My votes: No to everything, why fix what isnt broken?
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Old 07-29-2011, 01:20 PM   #9
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Default Re: New Rules Debate

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gigacat View Post
just an idea here: Add a voting option called "lurker bomb"which would kill everyone who hasnt posted in 3 days. just an idea.

My votes: No to everything, why fix what isnt broken?
I dont think thats a good idea, somebody might be camping or on vacation or somewhere else without internet for 3 days, thats a realatively short period of time.
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Old 07-29-2011, 01:27 PM   #10
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Default Re: New Rules Debate

1A: Yes, but I think that the rule needs to have an addition that says that hosts only need to set a deadline if little discussion is happening.

1B: Yes.

2A: No. Leave this up to the host. Some games won't work with small amounts of players (my upcoming split-screen mafia, for example, would likely need around 12-16 players).

2B: No, but leave the host an option to deny any player into their game due to lurking in past games.

1C: Leave it up to the host.

2C: Host. If a godfather is lurking, the host could always switch his role with that of a more active mafia's.

3C: Yes. To use an example, in Mafia 12, SK15 wasn't even on the forums at all during the game. He posted once to sign up then disappeared. Nobody is going to come here solely to play mafia--if they aren't active elsewhere on the forums, chances are they won't be there during the game. However, I think that a Post Count isn't the best way to determine this--you could easily get 10 posts over a couple days. Instead, I think the rule should be changed to something along the lines of "New players who have not shown that they will be readily available to contribute to a mafia game will not be allowed in a game until they do." Basically, this rule says that new players have to be regularly contributing to the community (so if they're regularly on the chat, that's fine) in order to play.


@Gigacat: Mafia, unfortunately, is broken. Participation has been dropping and even then a good amount of players who are participating regularly lurk in games, which kills most, if not all of the discussion in a game and further reduces interest in mafia.

Also, a lurker bomb would be unbalanced. You would be easily killing a large portion of the players, which could drastically alter the balance in the game. One of the two sides is bound to become crippled as a result, possibly even losing the game as a result (for example, what if there are 2 lurking mafia in a game with four mafia? The town then gets to kill half the mafia using one lynch, and it's a good bet that half of the town isn't lurking, thus giving the town a huge advantage).
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Old 07-29-2011, 01:29 PM   #11
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Default Re: New Rules Debate

Perhaps Mafia days...

Considering that lurkers can be replaced or if not, dealt to more drastically (As I did), I don't think we need too many rules added about them.
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Old 07-29-2011, 03:36 PM   #12
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Default Re: New Rules Debate

Quote:
Originally Posted by hyperme View Post
I'd actually be interested to see the logic you used to reached this result. I say yes to 3C.
Sorry got it backwards, my bad. Will change.

Proposal to change rule 3C. to "New players who have not shown that they will be readily available to contribute to a mafia game will not be allowed in a game until they do."

I second. If we can get three more people to approve this then I'll change the name.

1A. Deadlines are mandatory for hosts.
1A.(E): Only if things are slow going.
2A. Lurking is prohibited

1B. Player Limit Reduced: Maximum should not Exceed(temporary rule):
8;10;12;16;20
(the options)
2B. Lurker List Implemented(Lurker List will contain list of lurkers banned from mafia)
1C: Time Sign-up List should be posted.
2C. Backup Kill Senders
3C. To Join Game Target Player must have 10+ Posts
3C.(P) "New players who have not shown that they will be readily available to contribute to a mafia game will not be allowed in a game until they do."


P= proposed name change
E= Exception




1A. 2 No 4 Yes(WE) 2 Yes (WOE) 0 Host
2A. 1 No 2 Yes 2 Host
1B. 0 20 0 16 0 12 0 10 0 8 0 Less 6 Host 1 Reduce

2B. 4 No 0 Yes 2 Host
1C. 1 No 1 Yes 3 Host
2C. 2 No 1 Yes 2 Host
3C. 3 No 2 Yes 2 Host

3C.(P) 3 Yes(5 to pass name change)

I have a sheet of who voted what, PM me if you have any questions.
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Last edited by texasjoshua; 07-30-2011 at 03:21 PM. Reason: Taking Votes more Literally.
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Old 07-29-2011, 05:10 PM   #13
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Default Re: New Rules Debate

From Sonicchaos: "Nobody is going to come here solely to play mafia"
Thats actually the reason I joined this site, so it does happen with players on ocasion, lol
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Old 07-30-2011, 12:48 AM   #14
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Default Re: New Rules Debate

Quote:
Originally Posted by tylerseeg View Post
From Sonicchaos: "Nobody is going to come here solely to play mafia"
Thats actually the reason I joined this site, so it does happen with players on ocasion, lol
And bemyally, and AFAIK very ironically Texasjoshua. Also TJ there's 3 votes for 3C.
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Old 07-30-2011, 09:16 AM   #15
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Default Re: New Rules Debate

Quote:
Originally Posted by tylerseeg View Post
From Sonicchaos: "Nobody is going to come here solely to play mafia"
Thats actually the reason I joined this site, so it does happen with players on ocasion, lol
Quote:
Originally Posted by Felixrain View Post
And bemyally, and AFAIK very ironically Texasjoshua. Also TJ there's 3 votes for 3C.
Thats 3 out of 3,331 Hamumu members. Of course, not all of these members have posted on the forums. Lets just assume that only 25% of registered members will post on the forums. That's ~833 members. That puts less than 0.01% of members joining the Forums joining solely to play mafia. This does not make my point invalid.

Also, Texasjoshua is active elsewhere on the forums as well as in mafia. I don't remember for sure if he originally joined solely to play mafia or not, though.


One last thing: only 8 different players have posted in this thread, and of those, only 5 have voted. I don't think this constitutes a majority of the mafia community. I'm going to try and update the Who's Who in Mafia thread (or just create a new one) and then PM those who still play and haven't voted so we have more than just a few people's opinion.
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Old 07-30-2011, 12:30 PM   #16
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Default Re: New Rules Debate

1A: No unless there is none or very little talking for several days
2A: Yes
1B: I think that should be a host decison but i do think that in active games larger ones are more fun
2B No:
1c Yes
2c yes
3c No
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Old 07-30-2011, 03:16 PM   #17
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Default Re: New Rules Debate

Quote:
Originally Posted by sonicchaos1993 View Post
Also, Texasjoshua is active elsewhere on the forums as well as in mafia. I don't remember for sure if he originally joined solely to play mafia or not, though.


One last thing: only 8 different players have posted in this thread, and of those, only 5 have voted. I don't think this constitutes a majority of the mafia community. I'm going to try and update the Who's Who in Mafia thread (or just create a new one) and then PM those who still play and haven't voted so we have more than just a few people's opinion.
Excellent, Thanks SC.
Actually no I didn't join to play mafia, I joined by a reference from SM and immediately latched on to mafia first thing. Though my first 10 posts were all mafia related.
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Old 07-31-2011, 09:41 AM   #18
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Default Re: New Rules Debate

Posting Who's Who now.

Also, I don't think that "No" should be an option for rule 3C--that basically says that hosts can't choose to deny people from playing in their games like hyperme is doing for Mafia 13.
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Old 07-31-2011, 09:55 AM   #19
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Default Re: New Rules Debate

The No. Option is simply that the rule doesn't pass. I believe hosts are always reserved the right to ask a player not to participate in a game.
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Old 07-31-2011, 11:05 AM   #20
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Default Re: New Rules Debate

Before I start sending out PM's, I'd like to clear up an issue with rule 2B--the lurker list is not supposed to be a permaban list for mafia, but rather a restriction on how often lurkers can play. For example, if somebody lurks once, they are only allowed to play every other game. If they lurk again , they can only play every 3rd game, and if they lurk again, then they can only play every 5th game. I was the one who originally suggested a lurker list in the old thread, and I never intended it to be a permaban from mafia.

EDIT: Starting to send PM's now. For rule 2B, I simply gave an option called "Withhold vote" which lets the voter withhold their vote until a final decision is made on how the lurker list would work. I also combined "No" and "Host" options on rules where they meant the same thing, to avoid confusion.(Rules 1A, 2A, 1C, 2C, and 3C)
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