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Old 09-21-2011, 01:46 AM   #1
Gigacat
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Default The Euro

What do you think about the Euro? Will it collapse, bringing many countries in to bankruptcy, or will it hold up? Was it a good idea for Britan not to commit to the single currency? Will Greece survive? Should we still be able to travel between European borders without passports? Will old currencys return? Are the austerity measures good?

Personally, I think the Euro was a good idea. Trade between European nations was easier and when I was in the Netherlands, we biked to Germany and back twice with no disruptions. It was a really interesting experience to see no border patrol between two nations like that. I think that the Euro will hold up, and that countries like Germany will pump billions of dollars in to it. Taxes in places like Geece might be raised to rates like %40, and I support them if they do choose to do that. I am all for austerity measures, despite what PE might say. I think w should keep the Euro, but stronger restrictions should be put on nations trying to enter it. They must each pay $1 billion Euro to get in, and %1.5 of the governments income should go in to an emergency jar, in case something like this happens again.

So what do you think?
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Old 09-21-2011, 05:56 AM   #2
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Default Re: The Euro

The Euro was always a terrible idea. If all countries have separate currencies then if one currency is doing badly only that one country will collapse. A currency used by lots of countries that fails however, will cause a massive collapse in all countries that use the currency. Plus create a worldwide economic crisis, as has been shown.
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Old 09-21-2011, 09:26 AM   #3
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Default Re: The Euro

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The Euro was always a terrible idea. If all countries have separate currencies then if one currency is doing badly only that one country will collapse. A currency used by lots of countries that fails however, will cause a massive collapse in all countries that use the currency. Plus create a worldwide economic crisis, as has been shown.
Actually, the Euro is perfectly good idea for continental Europe, since they trade alot. However, certain countries *cough*Greece*cough* shoulodn't of been allowed in the Euro to start with. Sadly, the EU's method of fixing problems is to throw money at them. Cutting the problem off might be a better way to keep the currency afloat.

Of course, the Euro is basically an extension of the EU. So cutting Greece off from the Euro basically requires cutting them off from the EU and all it's benefits. And anti-benefits.

Alsomore, despite all the good Euro things, I prefer Pounds and Pence. Just because.
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Old 09-21-2011, 02:56 PM   #4
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Default Re: The Euro

Anyone who supports the Euro clearly has absolutely no idea how economy works. The mere idea of having a common currency between different countries and different economies is stupid, and that has been proven by history over and over again. I can go into more details if anyone is interested.

I would also like to address the comments regarding Greece, and the support for Austerity measures. Our government never asked the people about entering the EU, which violates the very first article of our constitution. The debt is odious, and we (the people) are not going to pay it off. Did you know that every child that is born here automatically gets to owe 40,000 Euros to the foreign bankers? I was never loaned any money from any foreigner, so it should be pretty obvious that I won't give any of them anything "back".

Honestly, I am very disappointed in you, for you have bought into the media's propaganda. Let's assume the Greek economical crisis is the fault of the Greeks who are lazy and useless people. Let's.
Does that mean the Italian debt crisis is the fault of the lazy Italians? How about Spain and Ireland? Sure Spaniards and Irish people must be lazy too. Are the lazy Americans the ones to blame for the 14 trillion dollar debt? Because if we accept your assumption as an axiom, those statements also have to be true. By your logic, the people of the world are at fault for the global economical crisis, but you still think Greece is especially evil because that guy on your telly said so. So which one is it? Neither. Both statements are not only wrong, but stupid. The capitalist system is at fault for this, for it is in its nature to cause extreme concentration of power and wealth.

And before anyone complains about this, this is completely unrelated to my heritage. The whole idea of a state is terrible, and I couldn't care less about Greece as a country, or being a Greek. The only reason I am supporting Greece is because 10 million of my comrades are blamed for the capitalists' crimes, and you simply reject logic and critical thinking, and believe the people who have betrayed you over and over again (News agencies, Politicians).

Wake up.
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Old 09-22-2011, 12:40 AM   #5
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Default Re: The Euro

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Originally Posted by Pumpkineater View Post
Anyone who supports the Euro clearly has absolutely no idea how economy works. The mere idea of having a common currency between different countries and different economies is stupid, and that has been proven by history over and over again. I can go into more details if anyone is interested.

I would also like to address the comments regarding Greece, and the support for Austerity measures. Our government never asked the people about entering the EU, which violates the very first article of our constitution. The debt is odious, and we (the people) are not going to pay it off. Did you know that every child that is born here automatically gets to owe 40,000 Euros to the foreign bankers? I was never loaned any money from any foreigner, so it should be pretty obvious that I won't give any of them anything "back".

Honestly, I am very disappointed in you, for you have bought into the media's propaganda. Let's assume the Greek economical crisis is the fault of the Greeks who are lazy and useless people. Let's.
Does that mean the Italian debt crisis is the fault of the lazy Italians? How about Spain and Ireland? Sure Spaniards and Irish people must be lazy too. Are the lazy Americans the ones to blame for the 14 trillion dollar debt? Because if we accept your assumption as an axiom, those statements also have to be true. By your logic, the people of the world are at fault for the global economical crisis, but you still think Greece is especially evil because that guy on your telly said so. So which one is it? Neither. Both statements are not only wrong, but stupid. The capitalist system is at fault for this, for it is in its nature to cause extreme concentration of power and wealth.

And before anyone complains about this, this is completely unrelated to my heritage. The whole idea of a state is terrible, and I couldn't care less about Greece as a country, or being a Greek. The only reason I am supporting Greece is because 10 million of my comrades are blamed for the capitalists' crimes, and you simply reject logic and critical thinking, and believe the people who have betrayed you over and over again (News agencies, Politicians).

Wake up.
Sure, I think the Greek government made a lot of mistakes and I realise that the greek population isnt to blame. But the Greek government (now on reffered to as GG) will not be able to pay off these loans by itself. The alternative is to become bankrupt and sell all state owned assets, revert to an old currency, print tons of said old currency to pay off loans, said currency becomes virtually worthless. The GG (and italian ect) should not become bankrupt, and if the Greek population have to pay %50 exta in taxes to make it work, then that should happen. It is not a good thing, not by far, but the alternative is, In my opinion, worse.
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Old 09-22-2011, 03:31 AM   #6
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Default Re: The Euro

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Sure, I think the Greek government made a lot of mistakes and I realise that the greek population isnt to blame. But the Greek government (now on reffered to as GG) will not be able to pay off these loans by itself. The alternative is to become bankrupt and sell all state owned assets, revert to an old currency, print tons of said old currency to pay off loans, said currency becomes virtually worthless. The GG (and italian ect) should not become bankrupt, and if the Greek population have to pay %50 exta in taxes to make it work, then that should happen. It is not a good thing, not by far, but the alternative is, In my opinion, worse.
You are making the assumption that we have to pay off the debt. We don't, and if our government was actually democratically elected without vote-rigging, it would have declared the debt odious. Every single cent that leaves the country to pay off the "debt" is an act of high treason, and justice will be served. How about instead of paying a 50% tax and destroying our lives, we destroy the lives of the 0.00001% instead. We don't owe anything to bankers.

Sincerely, 99,99999% of the population.
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Old 09-22-2011, 07:11 AM   #7
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Default Re: The Euro

The Greek government owes money to its creditors. This is mandated by international law. Refusing to pay it would cause only greater problems for the Greek state.
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Old 09-22-2011, 11:15 AM   #8
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Default Re: The Euro

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Originally Posted by Pumpkineater View Post
Anyone who supports the Euro clearly has absolutely no idea how economy works. The mere idea of having a common currency between different countries and different economies is stupid, and that has been proven by history over and over again. I can go into more details if anyone is interested.
I demand details. Because the economy is pretty much world wide. How much of your stuff comes from underpaid East-Asian workers I wonder?

Quote:
I would also like to address the comments regarding Greece, and the support for Austerity measures. Our government never asked the people about entering the EU, which violates the very first article of our constitution. The debt is odious, and we (the people) are not going to pay it off. Did you know that every child that is born here automatically gets to owe 40,000 Euros to the foreign bankers? I was never loaned any money from any foreigner, so it should be pretty obvious that I won't give any of them anything "back".

Honestly, I am very disappointed in you, for you have bought into the media's propaganda. Let's assume the Greek economical crisis is the fault of the Greeks who are lazy and useless people. Let's.
Does that mean the Italian debt crisis is the fault of the lazy Italians? How about Spain and Ireland? Sure Spaniards and Irish people must be lazy too. Are the lazy Americans the ones to blame for the 14 trillion dollar debt? Because if we accept your assumption as an axiom, those statements also have to be true. By your logic, the people of the world are at fault for the global economical crisis, but you still think Greece is especially evil because that guy on your telly said so. So which one is it? Neither. Both statements are not only wrong, but stupid. The capitalist system is at fault for this, for it is in its nature to cause extreme concentration of power and wealth.
It's not the Greek's fault. It's the goverment you have. However, if it upsets you so much, make your own party or something. Also, yes it's all the lazy people's fault. If they got up and actually used their votes, maybe things would be less terrible.

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*communist nonsense.*

Wake up.
No post from a goverment hating pseudo-communist is complete without telling me I need to wake up. I try not to be cynical, but you need to wake up. The world isn't going to become a happy communist utopia, because humans don't work that way. That is the ironic cost of mental freedom.

Also, yes, pseudo-communist. You've probably never thought about the people who suffered to allow people like you to access the internet. Coal, Oil, Urainium for power. Copper for wires and Silicon for circuitry. Iron to make steel. Aluminium for capacitors. Everything has a price. And for some people, it's everything. They pay your price, and you don't care.
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Old 09-22-2011, 12:51 PM   #9
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Default Re: The Euro

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I demand details. Because the economy is pretty much world wide. How much of your stuff comes from underpaid East-Asian workers I wonder?
A currency's worth is strongly tied to the economy of its country. Money has absolutely no value unless it is strongly backed up in some way. That way may or may not be Gold. The dollar used to be an incredibly strong currency because it was backed up by the United States' competitive production.

Meet the Euro. A currency shared among countries with different economies and different levels of economic growth. It is not backed up by any strong economy, and due to its chaotic and domino-like nature can be destroyed by the collapse of a relatively small part of the EU. Due to its open border nature, it has destroyed the Greek economy, by letting incredibly cheap goods import themselves here untaxed, and leave people jobless due to their hyper-competitive nature.
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It's not the Greek's fault. It's the goverment you have. However, if it upsets you so much, make your own party or something. Also, yes it's all the lazy people's fault. If they got up and actually used their votes, maybe things would be less terrible.
If I had a mere useless Euro for every time I heard that ridiculous excuse of a point, I would be able to pay off the entire Greek debt twice. You have to realize that this would only be a viable solution in a utopic democratic system. First of all, in order to create a party with any chance of getting a significant amount of votes, you have to be able to support it by a huge capital. Even if we were to assume that you could find the assets required to make a party, the elections are still rigged (Common-known fact here, as the vast majority of the people want every single member of every single party to be executed for high treason). Our parties are controlled by the bankers. Even the so called "Communist Party", which has repeatedly betrayed the people by supporting the system in various ways. Voting is purposeless because this "democratic" system is dead. In fact, absence from elections has exceeded 50% numerous times in the recent years. Mind that this is not because the people are too lazy to vote, as they used to vote back when they felt some party represented them. Blaming the crimes of a government on the people is stupid and has to stop. Did you know our current Prime Minister was elected because he claimed he would take the exact opposite measures from what he is taking now? Even if elections weren't rigged, this by itself should be considered grounds for execution.
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No post from a goverment hating pseudo-communist is complete without telling me I need to wake up. I try not to be cynical, but you need to wake up. The world isn't going to become a happy communist utopia, because humans don't work that way. That is the ironic cost of mental freedom.

Also, yes, pseudo-communist. You've probably never thought about the people who suffered to allow people like you to access the internet. Coal, Oil, Urainium for power. Copper for wires and Silicon for circuitry. Iron to make steel. Aluminium for capacitors. Everything has a price. And for some people, it's everything. They pay your price, and you don't care.
You pulled that out of nowhere and are accepting it as an axiom. Don't. At this time, there is absolutely nothing I can do to fix computer-related abuse of proletarians. My 600-euro computer is insignificant regarding the billion dollar industries that are behind it. What I can do, is use it for education and networking, which will prove to be very valuable in the future, both for myself, and for the whole society. What I can do, is train myself so that I can take part in the revolution that is inevitable. And that is going to benefit the poor people in China much more than me not having a computer would.

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Old 09-22-2011, 01:06 PM   #10
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Default Re: The Euro

You are hypocritical.

You harp on about capitalistic oppression.

You say they are removing freedoms.

Yet you constantly say that people should be executed.

Why?

Because they don't agree with you. Because they work for the government. Because they couldn't hold every election promise. Because you can't look past your own prejucies and idelistic folly to say anything else.

How can a person say they support freedom, yet want to deprive people of their most basic right?

Answer me that.
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Old 09-22-2011, 03:10 PM   #11
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Post Re: The Euro

The Euro itself isn't such a bad idea. Anything that removes barriers to trade between two nations is inherently beneficial to both, and currency conversion rates are just such a barrier. International trade is always beneficial for all nations involved. Society can actually a significantly higher quantity of goods and services if nations are willing to trade with one another more freely, and all parties benefit.

The problem is, using the Euro means being part of the EU, which requires introducing a great deal more impediments to trade. The EU imposes various constraints on its member nations, a good deal of which hinder member nations. That's really the heart of the problem, not the fact that the nations using the Euro produce different goods and services.

This is all covered in any introductory macroeconomics course. I highly recommend taking such a course before arguing that the system doesn't work because it doesn't fit your ideals.

Also, because it must be said, "No single raindrop ever believes that it is responsible for the flood."
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Old 09-23-2011, 12:57 AM   #12
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Default Re: The Euro

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"No single raindrop ever believes that it is responsible for the flood."
That's a good one. I should use that more often.

Hyperme, in order to mold your argument in such dramatic ways againt Communism then you must have to reside in the belief of Capitalism - and I fail to see how it is an any more utopic ideal. Just look at what misery it has caused, how many lives it has ruined. You know we're going BACK into recession before we've even had a recovery more than 0.2%? Not saying that Communism is better, I'm saying that Capitalism is no better either.

I also note you being massively hypocritical. How much of YOUR stuff comes from underpaid East-Asian workers? And you obviously have a computer too, so it's quite evident that it's actually you who doesn't care about those people because you're just using them as a counter to your rival argument. Plus, you yourself constantly harp on about how PE is wrong but you never actually give any of your own ideas as to how to make the world a better place. So Hyperme, Communism is bad. The world is undoubtably in economical chaos. Give me your ideal solution.
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Old 09-23-2011, 03:38 AM   #13
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Default Re: The Euro

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Originally Posted by CheeseLord View Post
The Euro itself isn't such a bad idea. Anything that removes barriers to trade between two nations is inherently beneficial to both, and currency conversion rates are just such a barrier. International trade is always beneficial for all nations involved. Society can actually a significantly higher quantity of goods and services if nations are willing to trade with one another more freely, and all parties benefit.

The problem is, using the Euro means being part of the EU, which requires introducing a great deal more impediments to trade. The EU imposes various constraints on its member nations, a good deal of which hinder member nations. That's really the heart of the problem, not the fact that the nations using the Euro produce different goods and services.

This is all covered in any introductory macroeconomics course. I highly recommend taking such a course before arguing that the system doesn't work because it doesn't fit your ideals.
University courses can and do spread propaganda. It is an obvious fact that when you import ridiculously cheap Egyptian food, the Greek farmer has to either reduce his prices to that of the Egyptians, or lose all his customers. In both cases, he is economically destroyed. We should not reduce our prices, Egyptians should increase theirs. The open-border policy of the EU is ruining the economy.

Quote:
Also, because it must be said, "No single raindrop ever believes that it is responsible for the flood."
While buying a computer serves capitalism, the benefits far outweigh the costs. The internet is probably the best thing that has ever happened regarding democracy and free speech.

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That's a good one. I should use that more often.

Hyperme, in order to mold your argument in such dramatic ways againt Communism then you must have to reside in the belief of Capitalism - and I fail to see how it is an any more utopic ideal. Just look at what misery it has caused, how many lives it has ruined. You know we're going BACK into recession before we've even had a recovery more than 0.2%? Not saying that Communism is better, I'm saying that Capitalism is no better either.

I also note you being massively hypocritical. How much of YOUR stuff comes from underpaid East-Asian workers? And you obviously have a computer too, so it's quite evident that it's actually you who doesn't care about those people because you're just using them as a counter to your rival argument. Plus, you yourself constantly harp on about how PE is wrong but you never actually give any of your own ideas as to how to make the world a better place. So Hyperme, Communism is bad. The world is undoubtably in economical chaos. Give me your ideal solution.
While the idea here is right, you are wrong about hyperme being hypocritical just as much he is wrong about me being hypocritical. The benefits (Education, free speech, infrastructure that can be used for online soviets in a communist system) far outweigh the costs (serving the capitalists by getting a computer). I do care about East-Asian workers, and I am pretty sure hyperme does too. He has nice intentions, his political beliefs are just wrong.

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Old 09-23-2011, 05:25 AM   #14
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Default Re: The Euro

For the most part this is why I just stay out of politics, I understand everyone here has very strong opinions but can everyone just agree to disagree? It could be in some cases a communistic society could work, it could also not work. Same with the capitalistic system.
Pumpkineater, if you think the entire population thinks one way, do something. Talk to people. Popular Sovereignty and all that.
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Old 09-23-2011, 07:26 AM   #15
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Default Re: The Euro

Just to get this out there: there will be no more calls for executions anywhere on Hamumu. It violates the basic Hamumu rules in some pretty obvious ways. Just because it's "political" doesn't make it nice.
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Old 09-23-2011, 08:58 AM   #16
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Default Re: The Euro

My polical beliefs amount to 'All systems are bad. Pick the least worst'. However, I don't believe that we're going to get a utopia within our lives. Why?

America! Also China.

More on that later. Anyhow, Egypt isn't part of the EU. So that particual point against the Euro is wrong. However, I'll be happy to hear any other arguments.

It's later. First, America! As long as people think Objectivism or like systems are in any way sane, we have a problem. And those Tea Party people are pretty uber-capitalistic. Taxes suppports Laws which are sort of very important.

Second, China. Superpower, Capitilist, Evil. Until they get democracy, many people are in a bad place. They're also keeping North Korea alive, but I don't think that's out of kindness. They just like the Status Quo as is.

So, of course the ideal system is some kind of fusion of Communism and Capitialism. Basic needs like food, shelter and internet access should be provided at a reasonable level by the state, but if you want a solid gold car, you should work for it.
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Old 09-23-2011, 09:52 AM   #17
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For the most part this is why I just stay out of politics, I understand everyone here has very strong opinions but can everyone just agree to disagree? It could be in some cases a communistic society could work, it could also not work. Same with the capitalistic system.
Pumpkineater, if you think the entire population thinks one way, do something. Talk to people. Popular Sovereignty and all that.
It's a friendly conversation, don't worry.
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My polical beliefs amount to 'All systems are bad. Pick the least worst'. However, I don't believe that we're going to get a utopia within our lives. Why?

America! Also China.

More on that later. Anyhow, Egypt isn't part of the EU. So that particual point against the Euro is wrong. However, I'll be happy to hear any other arguments.
That is true, but there still is no import tax on Egyptian and other non-EU products, which is EU policy and is one of the many things that is ruining the economy.
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It's later. First, America! As long as people think Objectivism or like systems are in any way sane, we have a problem. And those Tea Party people are pretty uber-capitalistic. Taxes suppports Laws which are sort of very important.
America has a terrible general system about pretty much everything. Even though many Tea Party people are crazy, I actually respect Ron Paul, as I find he is by far the lesser of all evils at this time.
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Second, China. Superpower, Capitilist, Evil. Until they get democracy, many people are in a bad place. They're also keeping North Korea alive, but I don't think that's out of kindness. They just like the Status Quo as is.
Yes, of course. I don't see what point you are trying to make here, though.
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So, of course the ideal system is some kind of fusion of Communism and Capitialism. Basic needs like food, shelter and internet access should be provided at a reasonable level by the state, but if you want a solid gold car, you should work for it.
I disagree. Everything should be free, as long as it was accessible to everyone. If you wanted a solid gold car, a good requirement would be that everyone would have access to a solid gold car.
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Old 09-23-2011, 10:27 AM   #18
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Default Re: The Euro

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It's a friendly conversation, don't worry.


That is true, but there still is no import tax on Egyptian and other non-EU products, which is EU policy and is one of the many things that is ruining the economy.
What. See, the EU is really bad at the whole 'look competant' thing, mainly because of stuff like this.

Quote:
America has a terrible general system about pretty much everything. Even though many Tea Party people are crazy, I actually respect Ron Paul, as I find he is by far the lesser of all evils at this time.
He has policies dictated by religion. This is an insult to freedom. Also what have gay people every done to him?

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Yes, of course. I don't see what point you are trying to make here, though.
China pretty much controls the fate of many people. And China is controlled by a small amount of people. See the problem?

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I disagree. Everything should be free, as long as it was accessible to everyone. If you wanted a solid gold car, a good requirement would be that everyone would have access to a solid gold car.
Reverse entropy and atomic annihalation and you can have all the gold you want. Until then, resource limits are always there.
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Old 09-23-2011, 01:34 PM   #19
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He has policies dictated by religion. This is an insult to freedom. Also what have gay people every done to him?
I know, and that's a shame. Still, if he keeps being honest with his views and follows through with them, the damage done will be much lesser than what Perry, Bachmann, or Obama (again) would do. An Christian US would be much better than the current Imperialist US. As much as I hate opposing Separation of Church and State, this would be a step towards civilization.
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China pretty much controls the fate of many people. And China is controlled by a small amount of people. See the problem?
Of course I do. When did I support China?
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Reverse entropy and atomic annihilation and you can have all the gold you want. Until then, resource limits are always there.
There you go, problem solved. Time for gold cars!
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Old 09-23-2011, 02:29 PM   #20
. Yellow Wizard .
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Default Re: The Euro

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Originally Posted by hyperme View Post
My polical beliefs amount to 'All systems are bad. Pick the least worst'. However, I don't believe that we're going to get a utopia within our lives. Why?

America! Also China.

More on that later. Anyhow, Egypt isn't part of the EU. So that particual point against the Euro is wrong. However, I'll be happy to hear any other arguments.

It's later. First, America! As long as people think Objectivism or like systems are in any way sane, we have a problem. And those Tea Party people are pretty uber-capitalistic. Taxes suppports Laws which are sort of very important.

Second, China. Superpower, Capitilist, Evil. Until they get democracy, many people are in a bad place. They're also keeping North Korea alive, but I don't think that's out of kindness. They just like the Status Quo as is.

So, of course the ideal system is some kind of fusion of Communism and Capitialism. Basic needs like food, shelter and internet access should be provided at a reasonable level by the state, but if you want a solid gold car, you should work for it.
Oh, so just because I'm american, that makes me infinitely evil?!?
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