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Old 07-23-2012, 01:41 AM   #1
Gigacat
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Default Socialism/Comunism

Today and during the weekend, i was given a bunch of homework and told to outline democracy, fascism, socialism and communism. I already knew the majority of what i needed to know on the subject and only needed to do brief googling, but i was astonished to find that Socialism seems to be a popular thing among youth in America. http://www.gen-we.com/ is an example and claims to have nearly 100,000,000 followers that believe in a government that is vastly based on socialism. I was quite surprised that such a thing would be so popular. has anyone else seen this sort of stuff on the nets or IRL? How big is this in america? Do we have any socialists/communists (apart from PE) in our ranks? What is your opinion on an equal society?
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Old 07-23-2012, 02:59 AM   #2
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Default Re: Socialism/Comunism

I don't agree with Pumpkineater. Mainly because on one who supports Ron Paul can't possible be a socialist or communist without grossly misunderstanding what Ron Paul stands for.

Anyhow, enough musing about other people's opinion and more writing on what I think.

Gender, race and sexuality don't matter. Anyone who says otherwise is a lying liar who lies. Or just a terrible person. This extends to the point where racial or gender based quotas are bad, because you add more deciding factors beyond 'can this person do this task?'. Picking a green person over a blue person to meet a quota, even when blues have oppressed greens in the past, is still racism.

Corporations are people! In a very small amount of areas where treating them as people is easier than rewriting the whole system. Or contract law, since I can't see any other reason for Corporations to be people. Otherwise, they should be carefully restricted, because something that literally only exists to make money can never be trusted.

Science is important. Children should be taught good scientific method. Alternate energy research should be funded because even if global warming is suddenly wrong, we're going to run out of fossil fuels.

If you don't have a formal qualification in medicine, you have no business telling people what will or will not cure them. As the joke goes, 'What's the name for alternative medicine that works? Medicine!'. But seriously, people who peddle alternate medicine and related things like 'vaccines make autism' are people I strongly disagree with.
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Old 07-23-2012, 12:31 PM   #3
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Default Re: Socialism/Comunism

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Originally Posted by hyperme View Post
Gender, race and sexuality don't matter. Anyone who says otherwise is a lying liar who lies. Or just a terrible person. This extends to the point where racial or gender based quotas are bad, because you add more deciding factors beyond 'can this person do this task?'. Picking a green person over a blue person to meet a quota, even when blues have oppressed greens in the past, is still racism.
Stupid Affirmative Action...
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Old 08-19-2012, 08:42 PM   #4
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Default Re: Socialism/Comunism

Well, I feel that relatively speaking 100,000 thousand people is not alot. Especially with the recent economic downfall of late people will generally turn to socialism or communism(or fascism for that matter) to fill there need. Also, Socialism isn't generally a bad thing, i believe in a few different socialism principles but there you also run into the issue that if people don't have to work for anything many wont work. In all forms of government you will run into issues. Someone once said that "Democracy is the worst form of government, except for all the others that have been tried."

No matter how you look at it all forms of government will run into problems, i seek to find the best compromise.

Society should be equal from all points of view(of at least equal opportunity anyway). From what i have seen it is never possible for a complete equality from an economic perspective, its just never going to happen. You just need to give everyone equal opportunity to establish that wealth.

From a economic standpoint its very difficult to balance equality.


In today's world. One of the major issues preventing equality is the fact that people look at the inequality in the world and point it out. If people would treat everyone equal equality would become the norm, pointing it out causes people to treat whomever has been pointed out unequal.

Probably too late for whatever you needed but there :P
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Old 08-19-2012, 09:51 PM   #5
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Default Re: Socialism/Comunism

What we need is not equality, but equity. Equal worth for what we put it. That's fair, and rather scientific too.
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Old 08-20-2012, 07:00 AM   #6
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Default Re: Socialism/Comunism

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What we need is not equality, but equity. Equal worth for what we put it. That's fair, and rather scientific too.
What do you mean?
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Old 08-20-2012, 12:13 PM   #7
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Default Re: Socialism/Comunism

Economic "Equality" is stupid. If I do a job that requires more manual labour or more training, I should be paid more for it. "Equality" dictates all people are paid the same amount, whereas "Equity", while being similar, dictates all people are paid the same PROPORTION of money for how much work it takes to do get get into each particular job.
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Old 08-20-2012, 01:07 PM   #8
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Default Re: Socialism/Comunism

Either way, it means that the amount people are paid becomes much more similar to Japan, where CEOs aren't very far from the regular workers. In North America (and probably in other Western countries), they're very very far in terms of amount of pay. More so in the United States than anywhere else, as far as I can tell.
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Old 08-20-2012, 05:47 PM   #9
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Default Re: Socialism/Comunism

Oh, i see. I never was saying that economical equality was necessary. My point was that everyone needs an equal change IN the economy. Equity however is simply a step farther from my logic. As julian said yea, a grunt is payed 40'000 dollars while the big cheese is a billionaire.
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Old 08-21-2012, 10:30 AM   #10
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Default Re: Socialism/Comunism

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Originally Posted by hyperme View Post
Gender, race and sexuality don't matter. Anyone who says otherwise is a lying liar who lies. Or just a terrible person. This extends to the point where racial or gender based quotas are bad, because you add more deciding factors beyond 'can this person do this task?'. Picking a green person over a blue person to meet a quota, even when blues have oppressed greens in the past, is still racism.
You do have to compensate for the fact that society is not and has not been perfectly balanced in the past.

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Alternate energy research should be funded because even if global warming is suddenly wrong, we're going to run out of fossil fuels.
Also, nuclear.


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Originally Posted by texasjoshua View Post
Well, I feel that relatively speaking 100,000 thousand people is not alot.
Assuming that's the right figure, that's 1/3 of the US.


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Society should be equal from all points of view(of at least equal opportunity anyway). From what i have seen it is never possible for a complete equality from an economic perspective, its just never going to happen. You just need to give everyone equal opportunity to establish that wealth.
Just so you know, that would involve taking very large amounts of money of quite a lot of people.
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Old 08-21-2012, 06:57 PM   #11
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Default Re: Socialism/Comunism

Awww man, misread that number. I saw 100,000 dont know why i said thosand on the end. 100,000,000 is a few more people however, i am shocked if that many people support socialism strongly in the U.S. I guess it depends on your definition of Socialism.

@ Mr. Onion, I know challenging the established society is always extremely difficult if not impossible. We were talking about the way things should be though so i went for it :P
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Old 08-21-2012, 08:47 PM   #12
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Default Re: Socialism/Comunism

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Originally Posted by Mr.Onion View Post
You do have to compensate for the fact that society is not and has not been perfectly balanced in the past.
The right way to go about that is to make it perfectly balanced. If you keep skewing the balance left and right, it'll never be centered.
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Old 08-23-2012, 11:02 PM   #13
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Default Re: Socialism/Comunism

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I don't agree with Pumpkineater. Mainly because on one who supports Ron Paul can't possible be a socialist or communist without grossly misunderstanding what Ron Paul stands for.
Ok, I'll bite. One of the main components of communist ideology is materialism. That means that the actual situation of society should define ideology, instead of ideology defining your worldview. Dumbed down, that means communists concern themselves with practical problems all the time, such as striking to demand a raise, instead of sitting behind, blaming capitalism and waiting for a revolution. This is also where Stalinists diverge from Communism. Last year during the summer protests, our "communist" party condemned the protests as bourgeois. Simply because the population did not follow their dogma of inaction and passive aggression, they called 3 million Greeks bourgeois.

I am not a Stalinist. I can recognize the fact that the American population is not ready for a communist revolution. I can also see through bourgeois movements such as the lgbt movement, and recognize that just like feminism in 1896, they serve the purpose of disorienting and dividing the working class. As a communist I am concerned with real practical issues, such as the US funding the genocidal regime of Israel or invading countries and massacring their populations. I find those issues much more important than whether or not an American can buy marijuana or marry someone of the same gender. As a citizen of a country that had an incredibly strong communist movement and still did not join the Soviet Union because Stalin arranged otherwise for us with his BFF Truman, I know how it feels to suffer through American intervention. Ron Paul is an isolationist that would end the American imperialist wars that destroy the livelihood both of the foreigners that get massacred, and of the American people who are forced to fund them. That is a million times more important than gay marriage, and he is a million times better than both Obama and Romney, who are psychotic imperialists.

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Anyhow, enough musing about other people's opinion and more writing on what I think.

Gender, race and sexuality don't matter. Anyone who says otherwise is a lying liar who lies. Or just a terrible person. This extends to the point where racial or gender based quotas are bad, because you add more deciding factors beyond 'can this person do this task?'. Picking a green person over a blue person to meet a quota, even when blues have oppressed greens in the past, is still racism.
Affirmative action is not bad because it is racist, affirmative action is bad because it gives a benefit to rich black people over white people and poor black people. The American educational system that is based on student loans and wealthy backgrounds has a million problems, affirmative action being of minuscule relative importance. Again, like lgbt activism it is a non-issue that has been created by the corporate media to distract the working class from its problems. The poor white guy that doesn't get into the university now blames the blacks, instead of blaming the rich. It is an issue that breeds racism for the sake of numbing class struggle. Acknowledging it and taking any of the two official positions shows political incompetence.

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Corporations are people! In a very small amount of areas where treating them as people is easier than rewriting the whole system. Or contract law, since I can't see any other reason for Corporations to be people. Otherwise, they should be carefully restricted, because something that literally only exists to make money can never be trusted.

Science is important. Children should be taught good scientific method. Alternate energy research should be funded because even if global warming is suddenly wrong, we're going to run out of fossil fuels.
Hey, do you know what's more important than giving American kids the right to be educated? That's right, giving Palestinian kids the right to live. Also, you are making the ridiculous assumption that Obama is going to fix American education. Instead of judging politicians by their talk points and stated ideology, you should judge them by their voting record. Obama has backtracked on the numerous issues that got him elected. Is marijuana legal now? I thought he would push the issue and give it the press it deserved. Have the American colonists left Afghanistan? No‽ Why? Has Obama legalized gay marriage? No, but he will right after he gets reelected, right!?!

Let's face it, the only real difference Obama has from Romney is that he is black and not as rich. Other than that he is just a big zero that has no firm stance on any issue.

I would much rather see as president of the US someone who is completely firm on his stances and who is against US imperialism than someone who says he supports weed and gay marriage and who will most probably invade Syria.

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If you don't have a formal qualification in medicine, you have no business telling people what will or will not cure them. As the joke goes, 'What's the name for alternative medicine that works? Medicine!'. But seriously, people who peddle alternate medicine and related things like 'vaccines make autism' are people I strongly disagree with.
An alternative medicine that also works is the lack of bombs falling on your house. Religious beliefs are irrelevant to politics and are only used to appease the uneducated American masses. Romney's imperialism is not because he of his Christianity, but because of his position as a capitalist. Religion is yet another non-issue that has been overhyped in America to distract the people from real issues.
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Old 08-24-2012, 10:13 AM   #14
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Default Re: Socialism/Comunism

Sigh. I guess I have to jump into this one.

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I was astonished to find that Socialism seems to be a popular thing among youth in America.
This is a poll on positive/negative image socialism in the US (which I assume you found during your research) which is pretty impressive for a term that has been demonized so much. It should also be noted that the majority of the American public have no idea what socialism means and it's usually (completely incorrectly) associated with Obama's policies and so I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of the support would be the result of the media talking about "socialized medicine" as part of Obama's plan.

This is a poll on many key terms. The poll clearly shows the overlap between people supporting "free enterprise" and people supporting "socialism" and it also indicates capitalism/free enterprise is still the overwhelming choice of Americans.

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http://www.gen-we.com/ is an example and claims to have nearly 100,000,000 followers that believe in a government that is vastly based on socialism.
When the website talks about 95 million they don't mean members or supporters of the group. They mean young people their age (thus the name "Generation WE"). That's not to say it's still a somewhat popular thing, but it's nowhere near 95 million.

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Corporations are people! In a very small amount of areas where treating them as people is easier than rewriting the whole system. Or contract law, since I can't see any other reason for Corporations to be people. Otherwise, they should be carefully restricted, because something that literally only exists to make money can never be trusted.
The problem with corporations being labels as humans is the fact that it means they also have the same rights as people do, which includes making political donations. Citizens United is the name of the court case that brought this to corporations which now allows them to make unlimited political contributions.

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Originally Posted by Gigacat View Post
What is your opinion on an equal society?
Equality has been proven to have many positive side-effects in society. What's even more important is that it does not matter how that equality came about. Whether it's through government intervention or just the way the society work (like Japan), the results are about the same.

There is an incredible TED talk on this which you should watch if you're interested on the subject.

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Originally Posted by Pumpkineater View Post
I can also see through bourgeois movements such as the lgbt movement, and recognize that just like feminism in 1896, they serve the purpose of disorienting and dividing the working class. As a communist I am concerned with real practical issues [...] Again, like lgbt activism it is a non-issue that has been created by the corporate media
I'm not going to comment on this because I wouldn't be able to adequately respond without breaking multiple rules.

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Also, you are making the ridiculous assumption that Obama is going to fix American education. Instead of judging politicians by their talk points and stated ideology, you should judge them by their voting record. Obama has backtracked on the numerous issues that got him elected. Is marijuana legal now? I thought he would push the issue and give it the press it deserved. Have the American colonists left Afghanistan? No‽ Why? Has Obama legalized gay marriage? No, but he will right after he gets reelected, right!?!
Ok come on. Obviously you don't know anything about Obama's voting record or his stances on any of the issues. You CLEARLY have not looked at his voting record and what he has said/accomplished on any of the issues you've mentioned.
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Old 08-24-2012, 10:55 AM   #15
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Default Re: Socialism/Comunism

Now this is interesting, this is one of the first legendary posts of Pumpkineaters I've seen. And I must say, its not a crazy as alot of people make it out to be, albeit it is a bit harsh phrasing wise but alot of the base concepts are sound.

Edit: Gonna Edit this for clarification purposes. This first post, Pumkineaters ways of saying stuff really dont make sense. However.... He has embedded deep in his argument in some places things that make sense. If you wish a better personal clarification contact me. :P Or just read my post.....

For example, the idea of Invading Foreign Nations being not good is true, he said it not in the nicest way but its true, nationalism has skewed our way of thinking such that most of has automatically put a positive emphasis on whatever our country does, which in most cases is good, except when we are doing something bad. For example, invading countrys we have no right to invade.

Gay Rights will work itself out over time, I believe strongly in the Gay Rights Movement however its a cultural issue, not a political one. marijuana is similar, it will work itself out through time, its a culture thing. Eventually things will get to a point that the majority of the culture believes it and it will change.

Now Pumkineater does have some weird stuff in there but if you chose to ignore it and focus on the key points you can get somewhere. His main thoughts are that we are concerned more about social problems here in the U.S instead of focusing on the key issues(our skewed foreign policy) and how we owe trillions of dollars. Politicians still claim to change the things they could never get through congress instead of debating how they are going to fix and economic crisis.

Affirmative Action, I've already taken my stance on.

Then Pumpkineater does a circulation move to avoid the education topic.... dont know why he did that. And I don't want to get into the whole Mit Romney Obama thing.
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Old 08-24-2012, 11:11 AM   #16
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Default Re: Socialism/Comunism

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Then Pumpkineater does a circulation move to avoid the education topic.... dont know why he did that.
I'm still waiting, that's for sure. Also confused about how my belief that education is important got twisted into involving America, Obama and other stuff. To start with, I'm not even America.
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Old 08-24-2012, 11:39 AM   #17
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Default Re: Socialism/Comunism

The base of Pumpkineater's argument is that the American people should focus on real issues (as if being treated equally by society isn't a real issue), mainly that of nationalism and intervention.

The reason I didn't respond to that section is because I (like a lot of people) don't think we should intervene in foreign politics unless we have a valid reason to do so. I disagree with him on Syria but I would agree with him on circumstances like Afghanistan.

The problem with his argument on that sense is that Pumpkineater hasn't realized it yet but he disagrees with his ideology on that issue. Communism's economics are HUGELY based on nationalism. Economic stimulus in the Soviet Union is done through campaigns to promote people working for their country and promoting nationalism. What he may also not realize is that communism is promote intervention into foreign politics of other countries constantly and requires it. The reason this happens is because communism at its base requires interventionist behavior to satisfy the criteria that a communist country should help other countries turn communist by any means.
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Old 08-24-2012, 04:10 PM   #18
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Default Re: Socialism/Comunism

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Then Pumpkineater does a circulation move to avoid the education topic.... dont know why he did that. And I don't want to get into the whole Mit Romney Obama thing.
The matter of education is indirectly addressed by my post in the same way weed and lgbt issues are addressed, but I'll make it explicit.

1)It is an issue that Obama is not going to fix because then he would run out of secondary issues and the fact that his agenda is practically identical to that of the republicans would be exposed.

2)It is relatively unimportant compared to issues where Obama has a terrible position and Ron Paul has the perfect one, such as American imperialism.

Your education will not be fixed until you revolt and get on the road to socialism. Whether you have a democrat or a republican president doesn't change anything. However, with Ron Paul as president less Palestinian children will be subjected to genocide because Israel will not get weapons and money from America.

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I'm not going to comment on this because I wouldn't be able to adequately respond without breaking multiple rules.
Did you even read Zetkin's speech on feminism that I linked? Of course you didn't, you just dismissed it because it doesn't fit your liberal agenda.

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Ok come on. Obviously you don't know anything about Obama's voting record or his stances on any of the issues. You CLEARLY have not looked at his voting record and what he has said/accomplished on any of the issues you've mentioned.
You mean the invasion of Libya? Or are you talking about social "issues" such as weed and lgbt, because other than him criticizing republican bigots I haven't seen him change anything regarding either issue.


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The base of Pumpkineater's argument is that the American people should focus on real issues (as if being treated equally by society isn't a real issue), mainly that of nationalism and intervention.

The reason I didn't respond to that section is because I (like a lot of people) don't think we should intervene in foreign politics unless we have a valid reason to do so. I disagree with him on Syria but I would agree with him on circumstances like Afghanistan.

The problem with his argument on that sense is that Pumpkineater hasn't realized it yet but he disagrees with his ideology on that issue. Communism's economics are HUGELY based on nationalism. Economic stimulus in the Soviet Union is done through campaigns to promote people working for their country and promoting nationalism. What he may also not realize is that communism is promote intervention into foreign politics of other countries constantly and requires it. The reason this happens is because communism at its base requires interventionist behavior to satisfy the criteria that a communist country should help other countries turn communist by any means.
The Soviet Union was not communist. It violated the most basic parts of Marxism and Leninism. For example, instead of the workers having direct control over the country through soviets of recallable delegates, the Soviet Union's leaders had lifelong positions. The revolution was betrayed as early as 1923 when Stalin had began strategically replacing the revolutionary leadership of the party with carefully selected bureaucrats.

Soviet nationalism was the complete opposite of Lenin's principles. While in 1917 Lenin did everything he could to end Russia's participation in WWI, Stalin did the exact opposite in WWII where he became Hitler's BFF and invaded Poland. Trotsky's works represent the true communist position regarding the Soviet Union's actions.
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Old 08-24-2012, 04:41 PM   #19
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Default Re: Socialism/Comunism

Hitlers BFF? They fought each other PE.
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Old 08-24-2012, 04:55 PM   #20
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Default Re: Socialism/Comunism

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1)It is an issue that Obama is not going to fix because then he would run out of secondary issues and the fact that his agenda is practically identical to that of the republicans would be exposed.
I'm very short of time right now, but I would like to point out the fact that Obama, unlike some Republicans, has an understanding of basic biology.
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